What happened to F1?
Discussion
Dave Hedgehog said:
The massive nanny state PC book of rules where they micro manage every little action the drivers take
Care to quote such a rule ?Dave Hedgehog said:
The ridiculous artificial measures they take to allow overtaking to try to compensate for the stupid aero rules they have enforced on the teams, other formulas do not have issues running close to each other, but they allow ground effect ... just watch indycars
So which aero rule has caused these "artificial measures" ?You are wrong, whats caused the aero efficiency is research and progression in understanding aerodynamics. The teams have spent massive amounts of money (back in to the 70s to today) learning how to make the cars aerodynamic. Unfortunately an aerodynamic car doesn't work very well in 'dirty air'. The clever engineers have created this scenario, not the rules. If anything the rules have been made more difficult for them over the years - without them the problem would be a whole lot worse.
You can lament all day, but we can't unlearn what has been learnt, with that in mind what do you suggest is done about the lack of overtaking that we had 5/6 (or so) years ago ?
Dave Hedgehog said:
the totally pointless hybrid nonsense they introduced that not only has near bankrupted some of the teams and turned the drivers into on the fly coders it has committed the heinous crime of making the cars sound utterly crap, and for what the pretense of making F1 Green? flying one team and all their gear to a race produces more CO2 than all the cars do all year... It has nothing to do with racing and everything to do with marketing, primarily of one particular German car company.
Yes the hybrid stuff is completely and utterly pointless if you don't care about manufacturers in the sport. Imagine F1 without Ferrari, Ford, Mercedes, Renault, Honda and so on. No-one cares about the green thing, but the manufacturers want to explore the hybrid stuff, so thats the way its going, same as WEC or is that crap too ?There's nothing wrong with the sound, its just not what you think it should sound like, I think they sound pretty awesome.
Dave Hedgehog said:
Bernie loosing the plot, the threat of gold medals? double points for the last race??? and this week the most patronising thing ever, great big signs that say "Bernie says think before you drive!" I do think thanks, I think Bernie is going senile. Why not start reversing the grid or even more laughable determining grid position by randomly drawing a name out of a hat .....
Do not ever take anything Bernie says at face value. He's way ahead of everyone else and has been for years, if he really wanted medals, reverse grids, water sprinklers he would have done it, there is little to stop him. Its a case of he says one thing to achieve something else.Frankly if you're trying to knock F1 because of a soundbite from a Bernie interview you do not understand anything about the sport.
Dave Hedgehog said:
The people running F1 are now so far removed from reality its beyond a joke, the decisions they are making are farcical, they need to remember F1 should be about one thing, drivers racing each other flat out for the whole race in cars that look and sound awesome.
Go watch a replay of Bahrain or Germany (just two examples), the cars look pretty good and they sound great. And stop all this s
t about "flat out racing" - show me when that was ever the case ? If you watch the driver interviews on Sky you can listen to Tony Brookes talking about they used to nurse the cars and look after them back in his day. You need to take the rose tinted glasses off.Overall I don't think you really understand the sport and have a romantic view of F1 past.. it wasn't what you think it was and in any case its gone, if you don't like F1 as it is, fine, stop watching and save yourself all the upset you appear to be causing yourself.
As an unscientific experiment I thought Id compare results from the German GP from 2014, 2004, 1994, 1984 and 1974.
2014:
Rosberg 20 secs over Bottas, 2 secs over Hamilton. 8 cars on lead lap, 4 retirees.
2004:
Saw Schumacher 8 secs over Button, who was 8 secs over Alonso. 12 cars on lead lap, 3 retirees.
1994:
Berger 5 seconds over Panis, who was 11 seconds over Bernard. 6 cars on lead lap, 18 retirees and 2 non qualifiers.
1984:
Prost 3 secs over Lauda, who was 33 seconds over Warwick. 5 cars on lead lap, 16 retirees, 1 DNQ and 1 DSQ.
1974 (Nurburgring):
Regazzoni 50 seconds over Scheckter, who was 33 seconds over Reutemann. 13 cars on lead lap (6th place was 2:18 down, 13th was 8:43 down), 10 retirees, 6 DNQ, 1 DSQ.
1964 (Nurburgring):
Surtees 1:15 over Hill, who was 3:37 over Bandini. 6 cars were 1 lap down, 4th place was 5:23 down, 8 DNF, 1 DNQ, 1 Fatal crash.
All this is supposed to show is that reliability has massively improved and thus keeps battles all over the field.
The "golden" ages people lament over never really existed. 1994 had massive crashes wiping people out because the track and barriers were narrow. 1984 has the two McLarens miles ahead of the Renault as most cars suffered Turbo failures, 1974 had the top 3 spread by 1:23, and 1964 had what on most tracks would be the 3rd place car a lap down!
People moan for the sake of it. The facts are the last few years, DESPITE dominance from Red Bull and Mercedes has thrown up some cracking races and racing. The only dull stretch was when Red Bull got to grips at the end of 2013 and romped away with it all. Even then you had to admire theirs and Vettel's pure dominance. And they also ignore the 7 races won by 7 different drivers to open 2012.
2014:
Rosberg 20 secs over Bottas, 2 secs over Hamilton. 8 cars on lead lap, 4 retirees.
2004:
Saw Schumacher 8 secs over Button, who was 8 secs over Alonso. 12 cars on lead lap, 3 retirees.
1994:
Berger 5 seconds over Panis, who was 11 seconds over Bernard. 6 cars on lead lap, 18 retirees and 2 non qualifiers.
1984:
Prost 3 secs over Lauda, who was 33 seconds over Warwick. 5 cars on lead lap, 16 retirees, 1 DNQ and 1 DSQ.
1974 (Nurburgring):
Regazzoni 50 seconds over Scheckter, who was 33 seconds over Reutemann. 13 cars on lead lap (6th place was 2:18 down, 13th was 8:43 down), 10 retirees, 6 DNQ, 1 DSQ.
1964 (Nurburgring):
Surtees 1:15 over Hill, who was 3:37 over Bandini. 6 cars were 1 lap down, 4th place was 5:23 down, 8 DNF, 1 DNQ, 1 Fatal crash.
All this is supposed to show is that reliability has massively improved and thus keeps battles all over the field.
The "golden" ages people lament over never really existed. 1994 had massive crashes wiping people out because the track and barriers were narrow. 1984 has the two McLarens miles ahead of the Renault as most cars suffered Turbo failures, 1974 had the top 3 spread by 1:23, and 1964 had what on most tracks would be the 3rd place car a lap down!
People moan for the sake of it. The facts are the last few years, DESPITE dominance from Red Bull and Mercedes has thrown up some cracking races and racing. The only dull stretch was when Red Bull got to grips at the end of 2013 and romped away with it all. Even then you had to admire theirs and Vettel's pure dominance. And they also ignore the 7 races won by 7 different drivers to open 2012.
Dave Hedgehog said:
this is a big problem
but its been made worse by the banning of ground effect which is much more tolerant of nose to tail running. F1 cars deliberately have a very high (relativity speaking) ride height and a wooden plank to stop them using ground effect
indycars have no problems running nose to tail at 220mph around corners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8v-X6S4wlU
Are you somehow comparing Indycars on ovals to F1 on circuits?!but its been made worse by the banning of ground effect which is much more tolerant of nose to tail running. F1 cars deliberately have a very high (relativity speaking) ride height and a wooden plank to stop them using ground effect
indycars have no problems running nose to tail at 220mph around corners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8v-X6S4wlU
Bradgate said:
Do people who are not football fans log onto websites to moan about matches that they don't watch? And then reminisce about the 'good old days' when unfit, chain-smoking players used to kick lumps out of each other on pitches which resembled ploughed fields?
You've been watching "The Big Match Revisited" haven't you?It was a whole different world back then.
According to the Torygraph, there were 52000 spectators at the German GP (capacity 90000+).
That is probably the biggest headache for the sport.
Silverstone was apparently a sell out, but if the German's cannot be arsed to schlep along to support the home team/home driver at his maiden home win then something is awry (richest nation in EU too).
However, I'm enjoying this season and particularly like hearing the tyres punished as they leave the pits.
That is probably the biggest headache for the sport.
Silverstone was apparently a sell out, but if the German's cannot be arsed to schlep along to support the home team/home driver at his maiden home win then something is awry (richest nation in EU too).
However, I'm enjoying this season and particularly like hearing the tyres punished as they leave the pits.
The thing that seems strange is when people complain that F1 isn't more like GP2, or Ginetta racing. It is different. If you prefer GP2 . . . (Excellent sprint race on Sunday.)
This season has been an exciting one and I've loved it. I had real fears about the changes but, apart from one team being faster by over a second a lap, I was wrong. It has been thrilling.
My concerns though are with the popularity of the sport.
The empty seats at Hockenheim were something of a shock, with German cars and a half-German driver, and this can't be healthy for the sport. No race in France! Where are the next nerds going to come from? Silverstone losing money, Spa in financial difficulties. There being just one person in charge and he has other concerns at the moment, and long term for him doesn't take in next season.
This concentration on sand and rice is rather worrying.
We might be looking back on 2014 and saying that F1 went out with a bang.
As for the sport being better in the 'old days', I liked it, loved it, then as well. The only period that put me off was the single car Ferrari days. Still went to the GPs in the UK though.
But anyone who didn't get excited by LH going through the field, by the challenge to Bottas in the late stages, by the battle between Alonso and Vettel - that was a thriller - and the other battles further down the field, should ask themselves whether F1 is really what they are after.
The criticisms of the TV channels concentrating on LH is rather odd. Can't you remember the Mansell days? Damon Hill? And I could go back. Moss was motor racing in the 60s. Further, I have a friend who was in Spain a few years ago and reckoned that their TV was all Alonso, that their newspapers carried pages on the bloke before, during and after races. If he wasn't on the podium he had to search for the results.
We've got it much more balanced.
I've always concentrated on teams rather than drivers, but over the past couple of seasons I've moved towards LH (mind you, little to cheer about with McLaren) and I reckon he's the most entertaining driver of his day. And people moan because he says what he thinks, that he gets upset. Do we really want to go back to the days of Ferrari dominance where everything the drivers said was rehearsed with carefully planned ab-libs? I like any driver who is as entertaining. Vettel and Alonso for instance.
I like F1. I've loved it for years. This season is no different to the ones preceding it. The worry is that those to come might well be very different. Enjoy this one, and the drivers, now, while you can. It is later than we might think.
This season has been an exciting one and I've loved it. I had real fears about the changes but, apart from one team being faster by over a second a lap, I was wrong. It has been thrilling.
My concerns though are with the popularity of the sport.
The empty seats at Hockenheim were something of a shock, with German cars and a half-German driver, and this can't be healthy for the sport. No race in France! Where are the next nerds going to come from? Silverstone losing money, Spa in financial difficulties. There being just one person in charge and he has other concerns at the moment, and long term for him doesn't take in next season.
This concentration on sand and rice is rather worrying.
We might be looking back on 2014 and saying that F1 went out with a bang.
As for the sport being better in the 'old days', I liked it, loved it, then as well. The only period that put me off was the single car Ferrari days. Still went to the GPs in the UK though.
But anyone who didn't get excited by LH going through the field, by the challenge to Bottas in the late stages, by the battle between Alonso and Vettel - that was a thriller - and the other battles further down the field, should ask themselves whether F1 is really what they are after.
The criticisms of the TV channels concentrating on LH is rather odd. Can't you remember the Mansell days? Damon Hill? And I could go back. Moss was motor racing in the 60s. Further, I have a friend who was in Spain a few years ago and reckoned that their TV was all Alonso, that their newspapers carried pages on the bloke before, during and after races. If he wasn't on the podium he had to search for the results.
We've got it much more balanced.
I've always concentrated on teams rather than drivers, but over the past couple of seasons I've moved towards LH (mind you, little to cheer about with McLaren) and I reckon he's the most entertaining driver of his day. And people moan because he says what he thinks, that he gets upset. Do we really want to go back to the days of Ferrari dominance where everything the drivers said was rehearsed with carefully planned ab-libs? I like any driver who is as entertaining. Vettel and Alonso for instance.
I like F1. I've loved it for years. This season is no different to the ones preceding it. The worry is that those to come might well be very different. Enjoy this one, and the drivers, now, while you can. It is later than we might think.
CharlesAL said:
Gotta love the old days when the tyres and brakes lasted forever, fuel tanks went on forever and the cars never had to be looked after because the engine and transmission were bulletproof.
Which years were those? I've been following F1 since 1988 and I can't recall *any* season where that was true. I agree completely with the comments Derek Smith made. It is ironic that the racing is so good right now and viewership is falling.
Certainly, the Tilke tracks in places with little or no motor sport tradition rob F1 of its heritage when they become the majority of the locations. The world changes, but yet, like many, I look forward to the great circuits like Spa, while the elaborate facilities and seemingly interchangeable tracks in the more recent venues leave me cold.
Even on the traditional tracks, I worry that the emphasis on safety will continue to make them less exciting as chicanes are added, curves are straightened and traditional vistas are neutralized.
I also think that drivers need to be a bit more accessible to the general public. I have been lucky enough to do a fairly large number of Paddock Club attendances and the world there is very different with lots of access, but its just for a handful.
In the US, the various series do a much better job in letting the more general public meet the drivers and of autograph sessions and the like, Not my thing, but especially for young people its a big deal. Also, allowing drivers a bit more leeway in what they say would be good. Why is it that I prefer to hear Raikkonen on the radio than anyone else?...we do need a bot more personality in the sport.
There is no doubt that we are at a time when interest in all things automotive is falling. The advent of the Web, Social media, strict traffic regulations, speed limits, and very expensive costs to run an interesting car has dampened enthusiasm. Modern cars are also much more complex, so the old days of amateur tuning are pretty much gone. To get the next generation of viewers we need:
-Easy to understand
-Strong personalities
-relevant locations
-freeze on rule changes in season
The actual racing is fine, in my view.
Certainly, the Tilke tracks in places with little or no motor sport tradition rob F1 of its heritage when they become the majority of the locations. The world changes, but yet, like many, I look forward to the great circuits like Spa, while the elaborate facilities and seemingly interchangeable tracks in the more recent venues leave me cold.
Even on the traditional tracks, I worry that the emphasis on safety will continue to make them less exciting as chicanes are added, curves are straightened and traditional vistas are neutralized.
I also think that drivers need to be a bit more accessible to the general public. I have been lucky enough to do a fairly large number of Paddock Club attendances and the world there is very different with lots of access, but its just for a handful.
In the US, the various series do a much better job in letting the more general public meet the drivers and of autograph sessions and the like, Not my thing, but especially for young people its a big deal. Also, allowing drivers a bit more leeway in what they say would be good. Why is it that I prefer to hear Raikkonen on the radio than anyone else?...we do need a bot more personality in the sport.
There is no doubt that we are at a time when interest in all things automotive is falling. The advent of the Web, Social media, strict traffic regulations, speed limits, and very expensive costs to run an interesting car has dampened enthusiasm. Modern cars are also much more complex, so the old days of amateur tuning are pretty much gone. To get the next generation of viewers we need:
-Easy to understand
-Strong personalities
-relevant locations
-freeze on rule changes in season
The actual racing is fine, in my view.
I don't know if this has been touch on before, but I wonder what the impact holding a race at the Red bull ring had on tickets sales in Germany. Possibly those in Hungary too. We'll have to see.
The venue has just coming back onto the calender, cheaper in relative terms, the 4 times German WDC teams supposed home race and not a million miles away from southern Germany. I can see the appeal.
The venue has just coming back onto the calender, cheaper in relative terms, the 4 times German WDC teams supposed home race and not a million miles away from southern Germany. I can see the appeal.
Niki Lauda seems to have at least part of the answer:
http://www.grandprix247.com/2014/07/21/lauda-mclar...
http://www.grandprix247.com/2014/07/21/lauda-mclar...
RDMcG said:
I also think that drivers need to be a bit more accessible to the general public. I have been lucky enough to do a fairly large number of Paddock Club attendances and the world there is very different with lots of access, but its just for a handful.
In the US, the various series do a much better job in letting the more general public meet the drivers and of autograph sessions and the like, Not my thing, but especially for young people its a big deal. Also, allowing drivers a bit more leeway in what they say would be good. Why is it that I prefer to hear Raikkonen on the radio than anyone else?...we do need a bot more personality in the sport.
It was certainly refreshing at the WEC to have total Paddock access and a Pit Walk / Autograph session (although those who queued purely to meet Mark Webber were living in fantasyland!).In the US, the various series do a much better job in letting the more general public meet the drivers and of autograph sessions and the like, Not my thing, but especially for young people its a big deal. Also, allowing drivers a bit more leeway in what they say would be good. Why is it that I prefer to hear Raikkonen on the radio than anyone else?...we do need a bot more personality in the sport.
Even back in the mid 90s drivers would do appearances during the weekend at team merchandise huts, so if you really wanted to meet one you'd have a shot. I have a memory as a younger lad of being shoved aside as I got Eddie Irvine's autograph!
There definitely needs to be greater accessibility. Where they have all the drivers sit for 20 mins or so to meet 100 ticket winners isnt going to win any new fans. Have proper sessions where the driver is free for an hour to sign stuff and chat to fans! Increase promotion in cities closer to the races (last year in London the Lotus store for example had Romain Grosjean playing slot cars and meeting fans in the late afternoon).
Around that there also needs to be a realisation that monetisation of F1 highlights is not a good idea. Selling sole rights to a TV provider doesnt make it accessible. But go online and you can see NASCAR, Indycar highlights for example. If F1 wants to drive revenue from them, then place ads! But having a 5 min snippet of the days activities will get millions of viewers worldwide.
Keep pushing the drivers as personalities. Lewis pissed off Button? Fantastic, sell that! Make it exciting! Its all too bland and soulless.
The racing is not really broken. And this fashion that its worth complaining about everything and moaning about the noise is irritating. Go and see the cars in person, they dont scream but they arent quiet.
^ agree with most of that.
And the locations of races, dropping a number of older venues and moving away from Europe into other locations which are not as good / accessible, etc. for most of us. These new venues may have made it more accessible for fans in those countries but less so for many of us.
And the locations of races, dropping a number of older venues and moving away from Europe into other locations which are not as good / accessible, etc. for most of us. These new venues may have made it more accessible for fans in those countries but less so for many of us.
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