What happened to F1?
Discussion
caduceus said:
I followed F1 from the mid/late 80's. But stopped this year. The V6 turbo sounds like a constipated camel.
Apart from that, F1 has been losing its soul for the last decade. The final engine change did it for me.
One of the defining things about F1 for me, is that it was the pinnacle of motorsport in every respect. You only had to HEAR an F1 car to know it was like nothing else on the road that us mere mortals would experience.
I hear better sounding cars on A roads at the weekend than todays F1 offerings.
So, the pinnacle to motorsport is just being loud. Nothing to do with the technology or the racing then.Apart from that, F1 has been losing its soul for the last decade. The final engine change did it for me.
One of the defining things about F1 for me, is that it was the pinnacle of motorsport in every respect. You only had to HEAR an F1 car to know it was like nothing else on the road that us mere mortals would experience.
I hear better sounding cars on A roads at the weekend than todays F1 offerings.
AlexS said:
So, the pinnacle to motorsport is just being loud. Nothing to do with the technology or the racing then.
Indeed, this seems to be the attitude of some "fans". Unfortunately these "fans" are loud (get it?) so they get heard, unfortunately they're no longer drowned out by the engines 
It's a shame that some people don't understand that the noise current F1 cars make is the noise that engines which are the pinnacle of technology make, these engines are 2/3 the capacity of last year but make 4/5 the power, that's roughly 20% increased specific power output, not including the increased KERS.
Anyway, for those of you who actually enjoy racing, you might like this:
http://wtf1.co.uk/hungarian-gp-2014-onboard/
Lots of onboard, no commentary (but a bit of radio).
Hamilton's car seems to sound like a modem, which will no doubt rile the "hurr it sounds rong" crowd, oddly Rosberg's sounds quite different. Possibly just down to the mounting or even electrical interference on H's car.
Edited by scarble on Thursday 31st July 10:25
scarble said:
It's a shame that some people don't understand that the noise current F1 cars make is the noise that engines which are the pinnacle of technology make, these engines are 2/3 the capacity of last year but make 4/5 the power, that's roughly 20% increased specific power output, not including the increased KERS.
It's a bit like going to a concert and being told that although the volume has been turned way down the amplifiers are 20% more efficient, who cares? The noise was an integral part of the show, invisible efficiency isn't.Watching and listening to the grid charge off when the lights went out used to be spine tingling, now it has all the spectacle and excitement of watching a fleet of milk floats leaving a Unigate dairy.
scarble said:
It's a shame that some people don't understand that the noise current F1 cars make is the noise that engines which are the pinnacle of technology make]
Current F1 engines are no where near the pinnacle of technology. How long do the rules last? 2020? Imagine how irrelevant they will be then. RYH64E said:
It's a bit like going to a concert and being told that although the volume has been turned way down the amplifiers are 20% more efficient, who cares? The noise was an integral part of the show, invisible efficiency isn't.
Watching and listening to the grid charge off when the lights went out used to be spine tingling, now it has all the spectacle and excitement of watching a fleet of milk floats leaving a Unigate dairy.
So which is it, the pinnacle of motorsport and a driving force in technological advancement.. or a concert?Watching and listening to the grid charge off when the lights went out used to be spine tingling, now it has all the spectacle and excitement of watching a fleet of milk floats leaving a Unigate dairy.
Anyway, I prefer quality over volume, like 1000W of JBL vs. 100W of B&W, one is loud, the other has detail.
eta: Rob, as MGUH/TERS is yet to hit the road I think we can say that F1 technology is in some aspects ahead of the curve (and yes I know VWAG have done concepts, but they're only concepts and I gather not so extreme as used in F1/LMP).
Edited by scarble on Thursday 31st July 12:16
RobGT81 said:
Current F1 engines are no where near the pinnacle of technology. How long do the rules last? 2020? Imagine how irrelevant they will be then.
A whole lot more relevant than they would be if last year's regs remained.Step-change developments in the automotive world tend to start at the top and trickle down to the everyday shopping box over a number of years. Look at the McLaren P1, Porsche 918 or LaFerrari - all using F1 derived or related technology. By 2020, we will be seeing Ford Focuses and the like with similar technology which is why the likes of Honda have renewed their interest in F1.
StevieBee said:
Step-change developments in the automotive world tend to start at the top and trickle down to the everyday shopping box over a number of years. Look at the McLaren P1, Porsche 918 or LaFerrari - all using F1 derived or related technology. By 2020, we will be seeing Ford Focuses and the like with similar technology which is why the likes of Honda have renewed their interest in F1.
Exactly. A lot of F1 (and some of its fans) seem to live in a world entirely divorced from reality. However, the reality is that the manufacturers were finding F1's even tenuous connection to the real world lessening by the year. Although we all know it is largely rubbish, the green agenda *is* here and it isn't something that can be ignored. Ploughing on with increasingly hard-to-justify V8 engines probably really wasn't an option.
Instead, F1 is now matching the likes of the McLaren P1, Porsche 918 and LaFerrari (as you rightly point out) and has indeed leapfrogged ahead of them. Suddenly manufacturers can justify being in F1 again to their shareholders and naysayers. Technology may not trickle down but it will create a halo effect, just as it has always done. I don't think anyone has ever truly believed that F1 technology does transfer to road cars, but as has always been the case - so long as you can will the suspension of disbelief everyone seems to be happy. The V8s just weren't allowing that.
Finally, anyone else remember all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when the V8s were mandated. Fans were up in arms that the V10s were better (they were). And before that people lamented the loss of the V12s. So I don't know when the V8s became "a good thing" because I don't believe they ever were.
RobGT81 said:
Current F1 engines are no where near the pinnacle of technology.
I can't think of a single sport where a specific output of ~375hp/litre has been achieved at anything close to a sustainable fuel consumption level; or a single application that's come close. And that's just the Renault lump. There are suspicions that the Merc is as much as 50hp more powerful, taking us to 400hp/litre. Whilst averaging over 8.5mpg - I had an Audi that did worse than that, and as with any road car it wouldn't even know where to look for where the F1 car went.Yes, we'd all love Formula 1 to chew through unsustainable levels of fuel and money and be an utter spectacle - but at the end of the day it has to pay for it's existence and in order to do that manufacturers have to want to participate. If they can't afford to participate because they're not able to get anything from it to re-use, then they walk, then there is no Formula 1.
Not to mention the loss of the H16, the Flat 12, the V6, the V4, the Straight 6, the Straight 8, the Straight 4, Supercharging, Turbocharging, normally aspirated etc etc.
Over the decades there have been many, many engine permutations - all had their unique characteristics, all had their distinctive sounds.
My only problem with modern F1 regs is that a single cylinder arrangement is cast in stone - and that removes variety from the grid.
What the individual engine specs end up sounding like is neither here nor there. If you listen to ALL the engines that have been used over the decades, they are all different. Wailing V10s or V8s are only ONE sound of particular eras. They do not represent what F1 HAS to sound like.
Over the decades there have been many, many engine permutations - all had their unique characteristics, all had their distinctive sounds.
My only problem with modern F1 regs is that a single cylinder arrangement is cast in stone - and that removes variety from the grid.
What the individual engine specs end up sounding like is neither here nor there. If you listen to ALL the engines that have been used over the decades, they are all different. Wailing V10s or V8s are only ONE sound of particular eras. They do not represent what F1 HAS to sound like.
Eric Mc said:
Not to mention the loss of the H16, the Flat 12, the V6, the V4, the Straight 6, the Straight 8, the Straight 4, Supercharging, Turbocharging, normally aspirated etc etc.
Over the decades there have been many, many engine permutations - all had their unique characteristics, all had their distinctive sounds.
My only problem with modern F1 regs is that a single cylinder arrangement is cast in stone - and that removes variety from the grid.
What the individual engine specs end up sounding like is neither here nor there. If you listen to ALL the engines that have been used over the decades, they are all different. Wailing V10s or V8s are only ONE sound of particular eras. They do not represent what F1 HAS to sound like.
Exactly. Over the decades there have been many, many engine permutations - all had their unique characteristics, all had their distinctive sounds.
My only problem with modern F1 regs is that a single cylinder arrangement is cast in stone - and that removes variety from the grid.
What the individual engine specs end up sounding like is neither here nor there. If you listen to ALL the engines that have been used over the decades, they are all different. Wailing V10s or V8s are only ONE sound of particular eras. They do not represent what F1 HAS to sound like.
That's the one thing I really miss from F1 in the past - variety. Although the cars of the 70's were before my time, I love how they were all so radically different from each other. Today's regulations are so stringent that there is only really one solution which is why they all essentially look the same.
I'd love to see the rules have far more wiggle room so that there could be some real innovation again. Although that would probably result in one team hitting on a killer advantage and romping off into the sunset.
Oh... wait.
JonRB said:
I'd love to see the rules have far more wiggle room so that there could be some real innovation again. Although that would probably result in one team hitting on a killer advantage and romping off into the sunset.
Oh... wait.
Me too, that's when the real innovation comes about.Oh... wait.
I think if the technology had more chance of filtering down to production cars, manufacturers would have more incentive to participate and justify some of the costs as R&D.
I think the Merc through-block turbo is a fantastic idea, but I can't see it ever being relevant outside of F1.
Actually, this year the cars do look rather different and do have fairly obvious different handling characteristics. So, for THIS YEAR at least, we have returned to what was once quite normal on an F1 grid - a bit of variety.
When regs are stable and left alone for a number of years, gradually the different teams of engineers work towards the ideal solutions to the task of making their cars faster - and the cars start looking more and more like each other.
Radical rule changes create a big element of uncertainty, especially in the first year of the new regs. The team that does best tends to be the team that has hit on the optimum set up for the new regs ahead of everybody else - whether by luck or by design.
I am all for changing the regs much more frequently.
When regs are stable and left alone for a number of years, gradually the different teams of engineers work towards the ideal solutions to the task of making their cars faster - and the cars start looking more and more like each other.
Radical rule changes create a big element of uncertainty, especially in the first year of the new regs. The team that does best tends to be the team that has hit on the optimum set up for the new regs ahead of everybody else - whether by luck or by design.
I am all for changing the regs much more frequently.
I think MGUH/TERS has a fair chance of trickling down not just to halo models but even more modest cars, with down sizing and high boost turbo charging becoming the norm, despite all the variable vanes and twin scrolls and ceramic bits and pieces, turbos are still laggy and I don't think we'll ever see bang bang anti lag on a production car (plus it only really works for brief lifts rather than pulling away from the lights), but an electrically assisted turbo is a real possibility and indeed VWAG are looking into it as I'm sure are others by now.
Edited by scarble on Thursday 31st July 13:45
Kolbenkopp said:
Corporate, I'd say from the 90es. Boring when they started to totally over regulate it, so a bit later. It has gotten a lot safer though, which is a good thing IMO.
If you have a minute on a Sunday, tune in though. You might be surprised, this season is not that bad IMO. I wish they could get rid of the stupid DRS stuff, artificially bad tyres and tight technical regs. But despite this, there is a nice fight for the title, a variety of teams capable of scoring points, talented (and not so) drivers, and a qualifying format works fairly well.
And Williams are back. Gotta love that
.
Happened across my 1st race in ages on TV a few weeks back, the whole family ended up glued to it & we've watched two races since. I havn't actively watched F1 since 1992 as I gave up on it then.If you have a minute on a Sunday, tune in though. You might be surprised, this season is not that bad IMO. I wish they could get rid of the stupid DRS stuff, artificially bad tyres and tight technical regs. But despite this, there is a nice fight for the title, a variety of teams capable of scoring points, talented (and not so) drivers, and a qualifying format works fairly well.
And Williams are back. Gotta love that
.scarble said:
So which is it, the pinnacle of motorsport and a driving force in technological advancement.. or a concert?
Anyway, I prefer quality over volume, like 1000W of JBL vs. 100W of B&W, one is loud, the other has detail.
I'd take a quieter V10 running >20,000rpm if that was on offer, but a hybrid running at 10/11,000rpm doesn't excite regardless of volume.Anyway, I prefer quality over volume, like 1000W of JBL vs. 100W of B&W, one is loud, the other has detail.
Perhaps people who only watch on TV need reminding:
The rev limited V8's all sounded exactly alike, and made a totally unnatural noise which was just white noise. V10s and V12s were more enjoyable yes, but times change.
Now you get to hear the nuances of the engine, car and what the driver is doing. They sound poor on TV, they sound interesting in person.
The rev limited V8's all sounded exactly alike, and made a totally unnatural noise which was just white noise. V10s and V12s were more enjoyable yes, but times change.
Now you get to hear the nuances of the engine, car and what the driver is doing. They sound poor on TV, they sound interesting in person.
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