What happened to F1?
Discussion
RYH64E said:
Really? Formula 1 doesn't need the car manufacturers and would be better without them, imo.
And you've just pronounced yourself retard of the year.Renault, Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda don't show up in 2015. Raikkonen seen driving a Hayter with a Briggs and Stratton engine.
Some 'fans' really are at the bottom of the gene pool...
scarble said:
RYH64E said:
Really? Formula 1 doesn't need the car manufacturers and would be better without them, imo.
Yea who needs Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari....The car manufacturers are trying to take F1 in a direction that suits their marketing needs, but an F1 dedicated to selling boring, hybrid hatchbacks is an F1 heading for extinction, imo.
RYH64E said:
Ferrari wouldn't leave, nor would Mclaren, Williams, Sauber, Force India, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Lotus. Cheaper, better engines wouldn't be a problem, nor would finding sponsors. So what's the issue?
You're absolutely hilarious. It is the summer holidays though, so I should have expected it.McLaren's car is still practically bare, Williams opened up with Martini on the wing and that's about it, Ferrari have their long-standing sponsors and that's it and Mercedes are about the best decorated in terms of sponsors but that's largely been helped by a significant dominance. Caterham couldn't make money to save 40 staff and Marussia barely have the clothes on their back, and the household name that was the Renault F1 car now is called a 'Lotus' and has to be driven by a monkey with money to exist.
Pray, tell; where does this magical pot of mystery money come from that's going to pay for people who don't normally build engines to build ridiculously inefficient engines?
Randomthoughts said:
Pray, tell; where does this magical pot of mystery money come from that's going to pay for people who don't normally build engines to build ridiculously inefficient engines?
Go back to the Cosworth DFV? Or stick an LS-series V8 in there; that seems to be the answer to most engine-related questions on PH. 
Edited by JonRB on Thursday 31st July 14:28
RYH64E said:
Ferrari wouldn't leave, nor would Mclaren, Williams, Sauber, Force India, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Lotus. Cheaper, better engines wouldn't be a problem, nor would finding sponsors. So what's the issue?
The car manufacturers are trying to take F1 in a direction that suits their marketing needs, but an F1 dedicated to selling boring, hybrid hatchbacks is an F1 heading for extinction, imo.
Over the history of GP racing, mainstream manufacturers have ALWAYS been involved to some extent or other. Up until the early 1960s, it was largely major car producers who got involved. The first team to break the mould was actually Ferrari, who only produced short run sports car production to either homologate the sports cars for sports car racing or to sell road cars to fund their racing.The car manufacturers are trying to take F1 in a direction that suits their marketing needs, but an F1 dedicated to selling boring, hybrid hatchbacks is an F1 heading for extinction, imo.
In the UK, Lotus followed s similar pattern - and they also produced racing cars for customers. BRM were a bit different in that they didn't have a road car division, existing purely to build F1 cars - but they were heavily backed by the UK motor industry.
The other British teams that emerged in the 1950 and 1960s were closer to what came to be called the "garagiste" teams. Teams such as Cooper, Cannaught and Vanwall all fall into that mould. But they still relied heavily on components (particularly engines and gearboxes) from main manufacturers.
As the 1960s moved into the 70s, the "garagiste" style of making F1 cars became the norm - with only Lotus and Ferrari still manufacturing road cars. But they weren't by any stretch of the imagination mainstream manufacturers. By the mid 1960s however, Ferrari were on the verge of going bust and after abortive talks with Ford, were taken over by FIAT - so, by default, became part of a large manufacturing group.
Lotus kept going by becoming the first properly commercially sponsored F1 team -and allying themselves with Ford.
The arrival of the turbo era brought the larger manufactures like Renault, BMW, Porsche etc back into F1 in a much bigger way.
So, as you can see, the manufacturers have never been completely out of it - although their involvement has moved between 100% car/engine builders to peripheral component suppliers - and all permutations in between. But they've never been completely absent - ever.
Eric Mc said:
So, as you can see, the manufacturers have never been completely out of it - although their involvement has moved between 100% car/engine builders to peripheral component suppliers - and all permutations in between. But they've never been completely absent - ever.
Maybe so, but the question is, does F1 need the manufacturers? There are only two mainstream manufacturers in F1 currently, Mercedes and Renault, and Renault only supply engines. Ferrari is in a class of it's own as a low volume niche manufacturer (and I don't think they would have a problem if F1 reverted to it's core values), Lotus is there in name only, so what's to lose? In recent years we've lost Jaguar, Honda, Toyota, BMW, and Renault as a team owner, without it making any difference, so I ask again, why would losing the manufacturers cause F1 major problems? The only fully committed manufacturer is Mercedes and I for one wouldn't miss them.
Randomthoughts said:
Ah, so you're one of Red Bull's 'committed' fans... That explains it.
Williams or Sauber actually. Your posting style does you no favours, imo.
Randomthoughts said:
And you've just pronounced yourself retard of the year.
Randomthoughts said:
You're absolutely hilarious. It is the summer holidays though, so I should have expected it.
Randomthoughts said:
Probably closer to a viable answer than this chump will be able to muster, I'd bet...
RYH64E said:
scarble said:
So which is it, the pinnacle of motorsport and a driving force in technological advancement.. or a concert?
Anyway, I prefer quality over volume, like 1000W of JBL vs. 100W of B&W, one is loud, the other has detail.
I'd take a quieter V10 running >20,000rpm if that was on offer, but a hybrid running at 10/11,000rpm doesn't excite regardless of volume.Anyway, I prefer quality over volume, like 1000W of JBL vs. 100W of B&W, one is loud, the other has detail.
Randomthoughts said:
Find me someone other than Cosworth to 'make' a high performance engine for Formula 1, outside of the automotive industry.
Cosworth, Mecachrome* and Ferrari, there's three, how many do you need?- Renault Sport F1 is a separate group company.
I don't want to get too involved in a thread where there are personal attacks, but I will point out that Mosley said that he was working towards removing the manufacturers from F1.
The MO of this was not fully explained but I assumed his plan was to have one engine supplier.
Fair enough, I have some doubt as to whether this would have been good for the sport, but one assumes - maybe against evidence - that he had some form of viable plan.
The MO of this was not fully explained but I assumed his plan was to have one engine supplier.
Fair enough, I have some doubt as to whether this would have been good for the sport, but one assumes - maybe against evidence - that he had some form of viable plan.
RYH64E said:
Cosworth, Mecachrome* and Ferrari, there's three, how many do you need?
Aren't all those companies owned by larger manufacturers?- Renault Sport F1 is a separate group company.
And even if they aren't directly owned, they often have very close commercial ties.
A Formula 1 team on its own does not have the resources to develop and manufacture/build the engineering that goes into modern F1 cars.
Just because there isn't a Renault or a Ford or a Toyota car on the grid does not mean that the manufacturers aren't involved.
As I said earlier, their presence waxes and wanes as the sport and the economy changes - but they are always there in some capacity - and they are essential.
JonRB said:
Crafty_ said:
Interesting blog post from Will Buxton : http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/ne...
(Stands well back)
Superb article. Some very good points. (Stands well back)
I don't think I agree with the OP. I quite like the higher levels of professionalism of today. There's been nowt wrong with the racing of recent years - the RB domination was a bit of thing but there was great racing going on behind - and the racing this year has been absolutely fantastic - possibly the best I've seen and I've been watching since the late seventies.
I don't see the manufacturers as too much of a problem either. They tend to come and go, but the likes of Renault have been great imo for providing the engines that they have.
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