What happened to F1?

What happened to F1?

Author
Discussion

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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Eric Mc said:
Aren't all those companies owned by larger manufacturers?
I don't know and don't think it matters, the question is would Cosworth/Mecachrome supply F1 engines on a purely commercial basis? I think they would, in the same way that Mecachrome currently supplies engines to GP2. Ferrari is a completely different case, but I don't think they would have a problem if F1 reverted to larger capacity, NA engines.

Eric Mc

121,769 posts

264 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
Eric Mc said:
Aren't all those companies owned by larger manufacturers?
I don't know and don't think it matters, the question is would Cosworth/Mecachrome supply F1 engines on a purely commercial basis? I think they would, in the same way that Mecachrome currently supplies engines to GP2. Ferrari is a completely different case, but I don't think they would have a problem if F1 reverted to larger capacity, NA engines.
I think it ABSOLUTELY matters.

These relatively small engineering companies are absolutely dependent on technical and financial support from large corporations which have the workforce and access to the latest engineering techniques and materials.

The beauty of the smaller entities is that they can react, adapt and refine this knowledge very, very quickly in so far as it applies to making their very specialist cars go faster. What the F1 teams do not do on the whole is invent new industries, invent new metals, invent new materials. They generally hone and adapt the innovations of others to their needs.

When you think of all the great and innovative technology that has been used in F1 over the years, very little of it was actually invented by F1. It was borrowed and nicked from other industries, such as aerospace or mainstream motoring,or sometimes even other forms of motor sport.

F1 does not stand alone in the world. It is an integral part of the overall engineering sector and is very much dependent on the flow of innovative ideas and materials from the industry as a a whole.

And for good access to that innovation, close ties with "the big boys" are crucial.

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
I think it ABSOLUTELY matters.

These relatively small engineering companies are absolutely dependent on technical and financial support from large corporations which have the workforce and access to the latest engineering techniques and materials.

The beauty of the smaller entities is that they can react, adapt and refine this knowledge very, very quickly in so far as it applies to making their very specialist cars go faster. What the F1 teams do not do on the whole is invent new industries, invent new metals, invent new materials. They generally hone and adapt the innovations of others to their needs.

When you think of all the great and innovative technology that has been used in F1 over the years, very little of it was actually invented by F1. It was borrowed and nicked from other industries, such as aerospace or mainstream motoring,or sometimes even other forms of motor sport.

F1 does not stand alone in the world. It is an integral part of the overall engineering sector and is very much dependent on the flow of innovative ideas and materials from the industry as a a whole.

And for good access to that innovation, close ties with "the big boys" are crucial.
The development war in F1 engines was called off long ago, they're basically spec engines made to tightly defined regulations, with materials and areas of development highly restricted. Once Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault have got the current units perfected (ie virtually identical in performance and reliability) that will be it, development will be frozen.

F1 doesn't need complicated hybrid engines with MGU-H, MGU-K, batteries and turbos. High revving NA V10s as used 10 years ago would be perfect imo, and several companies have existing designs that just need dusting off and putting back into production.

Eric Mc

121,769 posts

264 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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And you think that the current F1 engine spec will remain frozen forever. That's it - no more engine development?

I very much doubt it.

Time moves on and social pressures, sporting considerations and commercial considerations will mean that F1 will NEVER remain frozen. Within a few years, the engines specs will probably be changed again - and rightly so.

And do you seriously think that the current engine manufacturers are NOT fighting each other?

If they aren't - what's the point in getting involved?

JonRB

74,390 posts

271 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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RYH64E said:
F1 doesn't need complicated hybrid engines with MGU-H, MGU-K, batteries and turbos. High revving NA V10s as used 10 years ago would be perfect imo, and several companies have existing designs that just need dusting off and putting back into production.
Perfect in the odd parallel reality you seem to live in, which appears to be completely unconnected with real life.

As Eric says, F1 does not exist as an island; it is not completely standalone as you seem to naively believe.

Randomthoughts

917 posts

132 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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RYH64E said:
The development war in F1 engines was called off long ago, they're basically spec engines made to tightly defined regulations, with materials and areas of development highly restricted.
Yes, that's precisely why it was largely reported that the Mercedes AMG HPP lump had a likely 50hp advantage over the alternatives.

gaz1234

5,233 posts

218 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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it is a shame now that its more car than driver. and qualifying is the only real chance to show true speed.
i reckon chuck them all in a 190 cosworth merc to see who is the best!

BritishRacinGrin

24,602 posts

159 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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gaz1234 said:
it is a shame now that its more car than driver.
Yes because that was never the case in the past 60 years. irked

Eric Mc

121,769 posts

264 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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I've never known a period where critics haven't been saying this.

If you weren't driving a Mercedes or an Auto Union in the mid to late 1930s, you hadn't a chance.

scarble

5,277 posts

156 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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gaz1234 said:
it is a shame now that its more car than driver. and qualifying is the only real chance to show true speed.
i reckon chuck them all in a 190 cosworth merc to see who is the best!
Not true, in Hungry we saw Ricciardo in an inferior car outdrive both Mercs and in Germany we saw Bottas in an inferior car outdrive Hamilton. That's not to say that Hamilton and Rosberg are inferior drivers, only that on those two days those two drivers drove better. I'm almost inclined to think though that we have more drivers of champion calibre than in the past, it's been obvious for years that Rosberg has the ability, Ricciardo and Bottas are clearly at that level, Hulkenberg and Perez have both shown flashes of brilliance.

As for that race, some drivers are better suited to certain styles of car/tyre/etc. so can be not too good in saloons on road tyres but might be phenomenal in F1, some are good allrounders, then there's the argument that some drivers were taking it a bit more seriously than others, because they were newbies with something to prove, while some of the drivers at the time were in their fifties and really just having a laugh.

joema

2,644 posts

178 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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Helped by favouring strategy and other circumstances.


RICS big overtake on Hamilton for example was with far better tyres.

Thats half the problem with these strategies. They mostly just flatter the overtakes that we see.

Its an entertainment show for the masses

Edited by joema on Friday 1st August 13:16

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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scarble said:
Not true, in Hungry we saw Ricciardo in an inferior car outdrive both Mercs and in Germany we saw Bottas in an inferior car outdrive Hamilton. That's not to say that Hamilton and Rosberg are inferior drivers, only that on those two days those two drivers drove better. I'm almost inclined to think though that we have more drivers of champion calibre than in the past, it's been obvious for years that Rosberg has the ability, Ricciardo and Bottas are clearly at that level, Hulkenberg and Perez have both shown flashes of brilliance.
You didn't see either of those races did you? wink


Alicatt1

805 posts

194 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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stephen300o said:
Benbay001 said:
My nan loves F1.
My nan has absolutely no interest in cars.

That says it all as far as i care.

Ive never watched an F1 race, never will.
My mum likes sprouts but not mustard.

That say it all..

So therefore I won't eat carrots.
Me Mam loved F1 and would phone me up and chat about the racing at any time of day or night.
Mam is growing daisies nowadays and has lost all interest in F1, mind you I couldn't get a TV in the box with her.

Dave_newcastle

192 posts

217 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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Scarble - your examples do not support your argument

Mr_Thyroid

1,995 posts

226 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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scarble said:
Hulkenberg and Perez have both shown flashes of brilliance.
After Perez's podium you'd be forgiven for thinking that he was leading the way at Force India but Hulkenberg has been very steadily picking up points at more than twice the rate of Sergio.

There was much talk about Hulk's weight disadvantage before the start of the season - I wonder how much this has affected him in reality.

glazbagun

14,257 posts

196 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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Just a thought that popped into my head, but could the loss of tobacco advertising have been the worst thing to happen to F1?

With tobacco, advertisers were targeting everyone from Joe Average factory worker to rich yuppie, the advertisers(read= money) target market and the fanbase were exactly the sort of people who would show up at a race.

Ten years later cars were driving around with banks,multinationals and prestige watch manufacturers plastered on them. Surely Richard Mille or Allianz SE don't care if working class families are watching their advert or not?

Red Bull (and now Williams) are probably the only team I can regularly support with my own patronage, and so can a million students/ BMX / extreme sport fans.

Qwert1e

545 posts

117 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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glazbagun said:
Red Bull (and now Williams) are probably the only team I can regularly support with my own patronage, and so can a million students/ BMX / extreme sport fans.
Perhaps. But please don't ever mix me a drink. The prospect of a Martini & Red Bull cocktail is not remotely attractive.

Mind you, it might go down well at one of Max Moseley's parties...

simonpeter

188 posts

158 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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It will be interesting to see how Honda land in F1 next year. Will it be like the 80s where they took some time to get up to speed or will they rattle the Merc runners from the off?
Big question has to be are McLaren still a top team? They say they are looking for a star driver,( poor Jenson). Fernando, Lewis or Seb will only be interested if the Honda/Mclaren is a front runner.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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simonpeter said:
It will be interesting to see how Honda land in F1 next year. Will it be like the 80s where they took some time to get up to speed or will they rattle the Merc runners from the off?
Big question has to be are McLaren still a top team? They say they are looking for a star driver,( poor Jenson). Fernando, Lewis or Seb will only be interested if the Honda/Mclaren is a front runner.
One would assume that having left the initial season alone, allowing time for the system to settle, they would have an advantage in their design of the packaging. In theory, the Merc benefits from various minor placements. Honda could follow that route or maybe try something slightly new. Unlike the other engine manufacturers, they are not designing blind.

McL tactics have been disastrous at times this season (let's not go back any further than that) and they need to get someone in who can get some advantages from their decisions. Not splitting the cars last race seemed to me to be a basic error. The only time rain can be predicted 100% is when it is raining. We all know this.

The Honda engine is a lovely little carrot to hold in front of a driver. If LH jumps for it then I assume Merc won't be fully supportive of him for the rest of the season. Vettel might go I suppose but he's got a team built entirely around him at the moment. From what I've seen, if the car's OK he's on par, maybe better, than DR.

Alonso? Now there's a thought. I would assume that Dennis would love to take him from Ferrari. What a coup that would be. Payback and more.

I would assume Honda would make demands and there would be something in the contract if the performance (on either side) is poor.

All teams have periods in the doldrums. Look at them all. Williams is doing well this season. That might generate some more income from sponsors which will give them more money for improvement, which will increase performance, which will generate more income from sponsors.

The Hypno-Toad

12,247 posts

204 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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Derek Smith said:
Alonso? Now there's a thought. I would assume that Dennis would love to take him from Ferrari. What a coup that would be. Payback and more.
My understanding was that starting up contract discussions with Alonso was the final nail in Whitmarsh's coffin.

Everything is clearly subject to change but the stories I heard coming out of Woking was Ron would rather have Mad Max as his team manager than have Alonso back in one of his cars. scratchchin