What happened to F1?

[rdjohn]

glazbagun said:

Just a thought that popped into my head, but could the loss of tobacco advertising have been the worst thing to happen to F1?

With tobacco, advertisers were targeting everyone from Joe Average factory worker to rich yuppie, the advertisers(read= money) target market and the fanbase were exactly the sort of people who would show up at a race.

Ten years later cars were driving around with banks,multinationals and prestige watch manufacturers plastered on them. Surely Richard Mille or Allianz SE don't care if working class families are watching their advert or not?

Red Bull (and now Williams) are probably the only team I can regularly support with my own patronage, and so can a million students/ BMX / extreme sport fans.

I think that you have a point, I was surprised when at a recent TP's press conference when Monisha Kaltenborm thought that Bernie was right to forget Social Media "because what F1 sells is exclusivity". i.e. Forget the large fan base.

On the subject of ciggies, I recall everyone being utterly amazed circa 1972, when Lotus JPS announced that their budget for the following year would be a massive £4million (about £50million in today's cash) Upping the anti 5-fold for a current top runner is the biggest problem to having a fully competitive grid.

[deadslow]

Derek Smith said:

simonpeter said:

It will be interesting to see how Honda land in F1 next year. Will it be like the 80s where they took some time to get up to speed or will they rattle the Merc runners from the off?
Big question has to be are McLaren still a top team? They say they are looking for a star driver,( poor Jenson). Fernando, Lewis or Seb will only be interested if the Honda/Mclaren is a front runner.

One would assume that having left the initial season alone, allowing time for the system to settle, they would have an advantage in their design of the packaging. In theory, the Merc benefits from various minor placements. Honda could follow that route or maybe try something slightly new. Unlike the other engine manufacturers, they are not designing blind.

McL tactics have been disastrous at times this season (let's not go back any further than that) and they need to get someone in who can get some advantages from their decisions. Not splitting the cars last race seemed to me to be a basic error. The only time rain can be predicted 100% is when it is raining. We all know this.

The Honda engine is a lovely little carrot to hold in front of a driver. If LH jumps for it then I assume Merc won't be fully supportive of him for the rest of the season. Vettel might go I suppose but he's got a team built entirely around him at the moment. From what I've seen, if the car's OK he's on par, maybe better, than DR.

Alonso? Now there's a thought. I would assume that Dennis would love to take him from Ferrari. What a coup that would be. Payback and more.

I would assume Honda would make demands and there would be something in the contract if the performance (on either side) is poor.

All teams have periods in the doldrums. Look at them all. Williams is doing well this season. That might generate some more income from sponsors which will give them more money for improvement, which will increase performance, which will generate more income from sponsors.

The Honda engine is neither here nor there. McL currently have the class leading engine and they have designed a dog around it.

[Derek Smith]

The Hypno-Toad said:

My understanding was that starting up contract discussions with Alonso was the final nail in Whitmarsh's coffin.

Everything is clearly subject to change but the stories I heard coming out of Woking was Ron would rather have Mad Max as his team manager than have Alonso back in one of his cars.

Thanks for that.

I didn't expect RD to bear grudges.

[RemarkLima]

deadslow said:

The Honda engine is neither here nor there. McL currently have the class leading engine and they have designed a dog around it.

Exactly! I don't know why more isn't being made of the fact that they have "the best" power unit and are being squarely beaten by everyone else! Poor strategy aside, they're really into making some awful cars of late... I hope they can turn it around, as it's a bit embarrassing, add on the poor strategy, fluffed pit stops, and who knows what else and it looks a bit of a shambles.

[anonymous-user]

simonpeter said:

It will be interesting to see how Honda land in F1 next year. Will it be like the 80s where they took some time to get up to speed or will they rattle the Merc runners from the off?

Or will it be like in the 2000s when they never got up to speed?

[The Hypno-Toad]

Derek Smith said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

My understanding was that starting up contract discussions with Alonso was the final nail in Whitmarsh's coffin.

Everything is clearly subject to change but the stories I heard coming out of Woking was Ron would rather have Mad Max as his team manager than have Alonso back in one of his cars.

Thanks for that.

I didn't expect RD to bear grudges.

Not sure if he does but from what I understand in Fred's case he'll make an exception.

Again as I understand it when he joined the team Alonso asked for a meeting with all the staff in the canteen, where basically he said he was over-joyed to be racing for McLaren and supposedly said,
"I am yours now,"
And everyone fell in love.

Right up to the moment that he betrayed the entire company by running to Max & Bernie with the incriminating emails in the Spygate case because Ron wouldn't reign in Lewis, which then led to the biggest fine in sports history.

Again, as far as I'm aware, no one knows if that fine was actually paid but if it was, I would have thought Ron has 100 million reasons not to re-hire him without even getting involved with the basic offence of a company employee giving confidential information to an outside organisation. (A firing situation in most major companies I would have thought.)

But who knows? Sometimes you have to make friends again with the devil.

[simonpeter]

I wonder how hands on Ron Dennis is, he has spent the last few years as group head. Making life and death decisions like making sure the floor tiles are an even number.
McLaren have done a good impression of the old Enzo Ferrari days, if the car is rubbish blame the drivers. I mean Perez had a very rough deal. Jenson looks like he has had enough, which is saying something! Could you imagine if Lewis was still at McLaren?

[deadslow]

The Hypno-Toad said:

Right up to the moment that he betrayed the entire company by running to Max & Bernie with the incriminating emails in the Spygate case because Ron wouldn't reign in Lewis, which then led to the biggest fine in sports history.

Wow, not true. It was Ron who made the call to Mosley.

eta I doubt RD would bear a grudge - he has dealt with plenty of tough characters over the years

Edited by deadslow on Saturday 2nd August 16:25

[Teppic]

deadslow said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

Right up to the moment that he betrayed the entire company by running to Max & Bernie with the incriminating emails in the Spygate case because Ron wouldn't reign in Lewis, which then led to the biggest fine in sports history.

Wow, not true. It was Ron who made the call to Mosley.

But only because Alonso was threatening to do so if Ron didn't reign Lewis in. Ron ruined Alonso's blackmail attempt by going to Max himself.

[deadslow]

Teppic said:

deadslow said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

Right up to the moment that he betrayed the entire company by running to Max & Bernie with the incriminating emails in the Spygate case because Ron wouldn't reign in Lewis, which then led to the biggest fine in sports history.

Wow, not true. It was Ron who made the call to Mosley.

But only because Alonso was threatening to do so if Ron didn't reign Lewis in. Ron ruined Alonso's blackmail attempt by going to Max himself.

I like to believe Ron went to Max because he did not know the extent to which cheating had been going on in his team and when it came to his attention he did the right thing. Otherwise its just two cheats double bluffing each other which is most unedifying.

[Derek Smith]

deadslow said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

Right up to the moment that he betrayed the entire company by running to Max & Bernie with the incriminating emails in the Spygate case because Ron wouldn't reign in Lewis, which then led to the biggest fine in sports history.

Wow, not true. It was Ron who made the call to Mosley.

The story that seems to have been accepted is that Alonso told RD that he was receiving information from Stepney. There are unsubstantiated tails that he used this as a threat. Whatever, if he was informed, RD was placed in a position where he had been told that there was inappropriate behaviour by one of his contracted staff. So he did what any other team manager would do (subject to official confirmation) and reported it to Mosley.

The drivers were then offered amnesty if they spilled the beans on what had been going on. The strange thing is that, apart from one or two minor features on the McL, the main info was not going into McL but into two of the drivers, FA and PdlR. RD knew nothing of this.

So the main offenders were given amnesty and they both incriminated themselves. An odd way of going about things. That is, the norm for the FIA some might suggest, but odd for everyone else.

RD was fined $100,000,000 (they say) whilst the person who organised the fire in Germany got away with a telling-off.

LH refused to testify against RD, saying that he was clean. A risky tactic of course, and little was proved against RD and they could well have been looking for a scapegoat. It was a relief to find that LH was not subsequently a victim of some iffy calls during races.

If RD is still nursing resentment against Alonso, then the converse is that he feels he owes LH. I wonder how much he'd offer the guy to drive for the team?

The Whitmarsh letter, actually written by lawyers according to a lawyer friend of mine, essentially rebutting the findings of the panel, is a classic of its kind, yet most newspapers reported it as a cringing apology. I've always wondered if they were given instructions on what to say.

Bringing the sport into disrepute indeed.

In essence it was Stepney and Coughlan (I actually typed Coulson - odd) who were doing thing for themselves, hawking the information along the pitlane. It had little or nothing to do with McL. They saw little that other teams were not aware of, apart, that is, for the information going to FA and PdlR - and that, by unified agreement, was all but worthless.

Someone put the information of the sordid orgies in the way of the NotW. I feel certain it wasn't RD. But I bet we all have completely unfounded suspicions as to who it was. There are many who benefited once he was out of the picture. The fans, certainly.

Once Mosely was yesterday's bloke who used to do volunteer work for the FIA, and the FIA had no income from F1, apart from the licences fee, Ecclestone was free to do what he wanted as the teams had been broken as a unified pressure group. Then the prosecutions and civil actions against Ecclestone started.

The fine hurt McL quite badly and since then the team has dropped down the field. There are rumours that the full amount was never actually paid. One would assume that lawyers might have had something to do with that if true. If we look back as to how the inquiry into the removal of the safety device in the fuel rig was perpetuated then, if Mosley followed the same attitude to process he displayed there, there might well have been one or two bits they could open up. This would not have reached the fans of course.

There was one bit on the FIA website which suggested that a small amount of money from the payment of the fine had gone to, I think, go-karting for kids. Nothing since that I've been aware of. Mind you, I'm sure it is there when the FIA files its accounts.

[m444ttb]

REALIST123 said:

Or will it be like in the 2000s when they never got up to speed?

That all went wrong when they decided simply being an engine manufacturer wasn't enough for them. Things were progressing nicely with BAR I thought. It's a shame they couldn't have stuck with works engine supply to Jordan and made a regular success of things.

[simonpeter]

This new formula has changed the sport we love radically. Now every aspect of how a driver performs in the car is micro managed by his engineers. I guess we will never hear another leave me alone from Kimi.
I wonder, does anyone know what Sebastian Vettel has named his car this year? Could it be Sally Bercow!

[anonymous-user]

m444ttb said:

REALIST123 said:

Or will it be like in the 2000s when they never got up to speed?

That all went wrong when they decided simply being an engine manufacturer wasn't enough for them. Things were progressing nicely with BAR I thought. It's a shame they couldn't have stuck with works engine supply to Jordan and made a regular success of things.

But the Honda engine was the weak link in the later Honda cars. One of the keys to 2009 was the Mercedes engine, which was well ahead of the Honda. No reason to suppose it will be any different this time around.

[gaz1234]

RemarkLima said:

Exactly! I don't know why more isn't being made of the fact that they have "the best" power unit and are being squarely beaten by everyone else! Poor strategy aside, they're really into making some awful cars of late... I hope they can turn it around, as it's a bit embarrassing, add on the poor strategy, fluffed pit stops, and who knows what else and it looks a bit of a shambles.

How do you know this?