Is it mclarens turn for the gradual decline?
Discussion
celicawrc said:
They should sack Whitmarsh and bring back Ron, then they would definitely be back at the front.
I went to a Formula 1 Forum, run by James Allen. Whitmarsh spoke on it, took the lead in fact. He was very interesting, very personable.He had a little plastic name bar on the desk in front of him and after the forum I took possession of it and, not wanting to steal it, went up to a chap in a dark suit and a mental badge, and asked if I could buy it.
He was obviously up for a bit of fun so kept his expression completely blank and went through an 'I'm confused' game, making me try and explain why I wanted it.
'I'll pay,' I said. 'I don' mind paying.'
He took hold of it, studied it, shook his head and said: 'If it's that important to you, you can keep it. Don't drop it in the street outside though.'
There was me, 60+ years old, acting like a sad fan. But I didn't mind. I had my name bar.
Now it means nothing.
I should ask for my money back.
Great tale Derek, possibly my favourite one. I wouldn't have assumed you were 60 from your TV appearance.Whitmarsh seems a good bloke, flying to Germany and talking Merc. into allowing Brawn to use their engines have the Honda withdrawal and helping Perez get a drive after he was ditched by McLaren.
In a previous life I had some dealings with McLaren and a project at the NPL at Teddington.
Derek Smith said:
I went to a Formula 1 Forum, run by James Allen. Whitmarsh spoke on it, took the lead in fact. He was very interesting, very personable.
He had a little plastic name bar on the desk in front of him and after the forum I took possession of it and, not wanting to steal it, went up to a chap in a dark suit and a mental badge, and asked if I could buy it.
He was obviously up for a bit of fun so kept his expression completely blank and went through an 'I'm confused' game, making me try and explain why I wanted it.
'I'll pay,' I said. 'I don' mind paying.'
He took hold of it, studied it, shook his head and said: 'If it's that important to you, you can keep it. Don't drop it in the street outside though.'
There was me, 60+ years old, acting like a sad fan. But I didn't mind. I had my name bar.
Now it means nothing.
I should ask for my money back.
I'd have been more interested in buying the Mental Badge, now there's a keepsake.He had a little plastic name bar on the desk in front of him and after the forum I took possession of it and, not wanting to steal it, went up to a chap in a dark suit and a mental badge, and asked if I could buy it.
He was obviously up for a bit of fun so kept his expression completely blank and went through an 'I'm confused' game, making me try and explain why I wanted it.
'I'll pay,' I said. 'I don' mind paying.'
He took hold of it, studied it, shook his head and said: 'If it's that important to you, you can keep it. Don't drop it in the street outside though.'
There was me, 60+ years old, acting like a sad fan. But I didn't mind. I had my name bar.
Now it means nothing.
I should ask for my money back.
Dakkon said:
Crafty_ said:
All the Merc engines are exactly the same. The difference is in the chassis and aero.
All Merc engines are not the sameIn regards to the OP - they could be in line for a decade or more in the doldrums like Williams.
The Honda thing is a big issue - I wouldn't be surprised, if, like Mercedes did for this year they've thrown all their efforts into 2015 at the expense of 2014 - there's a finite amount of R&D work you can do with the resources you have - the problem they face is that whereas all the other teams who are keeping with the same engine supplier can start 2015 with version 1.2 of the car that finishes Abu Dhabi - they've really cocked up in the past when they've thrown out a really fast car to start the next season with a blank sheet of paper design and been miles off the pace.
IMO the challenges they face, driver-wise they've got a great pairing at the moment, Kevin looks like he's going to be very special with a bit more experience and he's shown up Jenson a few times, he could be proper replacement for Lewis Hamilton's explosive style that is a good counter to Jenson's measured style - but if Jenson retires at the end of the year or they are tempted to get in a big headliner like Vettel / Alonso it could be more trouble than it's worth. In the pit / wall / factory though they're haemorrhaging talent.
Sponsors ARE an issue, it's easy to look at the giant that is McL and it's technology centre and it's range of road cars and think they've got all the money in the world, but the truth is, it's not the 60's and 70's they're not in the business of throwing all their money away for the love of the sport - they need to make sure they're still around in 2015, 2016 and beyond - just because they might have $500m in resources, they can't spend it all hoping that Honda will bung them a trillion yen or allow them to sell all their body space to Cilit Bang.
I suspect they're going to have an all-or-nothing 2015, either they'll do a Brawn and having something that's a league ahead of the rest of the field - or they'll have an under developed car and be fighting with Caterham at the back.
P-Jay said:
Dakkon said:
Crafty_ said:
All the Merc engines are exactly the same. The difference is in the chassis and aero.
All Merc engines are not the sameIn regards to the OP - they could be in line for a decade or more in the doldrums like Williams.
The Honda thing is a big issue - I wouldn't be surprised, if, like Mercedes did for this year they've thrown all their efforts into 2015 at the expense of 2014 - there's a finite amount of R&D work you can do with the resources you have - the problem they face is that whereas all the other teams who are keeping with the same engine supplier can start 2015 with version 1.2 of the car that finishes Abu Dhabi - they've really cocked up in the past when they've thrown out a really fast car to start the next season with a blank sheet of paper design and been miles off the pace.
IMO the challenges they face, driver-wise they've got a great pairing at the moment, Kevin looks like he's going to be very special with a bit more experience and he's shown up Jenson a few times, he could be proper replacement for Lewis Hamilton's explosive style that is a good counter to Jenson's measured style - but if Jenson retires at the end of the year or they are tempted to get in a big headliner like Vettel / Alonso it could be more trouble than it's worth. In the pit / wall / factory though they're haemorrhaging talent.
Sponsors ARE an issue, it's easy to look at the giant that is McL and it's technology centre and it's range of road cars and think they've got all the money in the world, but the truth is, it's not the 60's and 70's they're not in the business of throwing all their money away for the love of the sport - they need to make sure they're still around in 2015, 2016 and beyond - just because they might have $500m in resources, they can't spend it all hoping that Honda will bung them a trillion yen or allow them to sell all their body space to Cilit Bang.
I suspect they're going to have an all-or-nothing 2015, either they'll do a Brawn and having something that's a league ahead of the rest of the field - or they'll have an under developed car and be fighting with Caterham at the back.
F1 drives need to go more like the football career wher you start low get to a low top team then after a few years get your shot at the big team before gradually declining and ending up at bumtown rovers for kicks.
slipstream 1985 said:
Race results ar 9-2 in Jenson favour. I don't rate jenson in the top 3 drivers either maybe top 6. The issue nowadays is everyone is trying to get the "next" superstar. But they are getting them too early in their careers into great cars the exception being lewis. Mclaren took perez too early and i think ferrari actually sold them a dummy on that one. Red bull have done it right with ricardo who had a good few years learning his trade and making mistake which were accepted more. Now he has the maturity and experience to make the most of a top 3 car.
F1 drives need to go more like the football career wher you start low get to a low top team then after a few years get your shot at the big team before gradually declining and ending up at bumtown rovers for kicks.
Hadn't Lewis clocked up thousands of KMs testing before getting the race seat?F1 drives need to go more like the football career wher you start low get to a low top team then after a few years get your shot at the big team before gradually declining and ending up at bumtown rovers for kicks.
The testing ban and the disbanding of the test teams has impacted on the opportunities of newcomers to F1 getting mileage under their belt. A case could be made that it's made F1 more dangerous due to their inability to get experience of the cars in safer testing environment before arriving at the grid.
carinaman said:
Hadn't Lewis clocked up thousands of KMs testing before getting the race seat?
The testing ban and the disbanding of the test teams has impacted on the opportunities of newcomers to F1 getting mileage under their belt. A case could be made that it's made F1 more dangerous due to their inability to get experience of the cars in safer testing environment before arriving at the grid.
Testing bans were already in place by the time Lewis was waiting in the wings, the thousands of miles of testing was mostly sim work IIRC.The testing ban and the disbanding of the test teams has impacted on the opportunities of newcomers to F1 getting mileage under their belt. A case could be made that it's made F1 more dangerous due to their inability to get experience of the cars in safer testing environment before arriving at the grid.
Crafty_ said:
Testing bans were already in place by the time Lewis was waiting in the wings, the thousands of miles of testing was mostly sim work IIRC.
Pre-season testingPre-season testing began in November 2006 at the Circuit de Catalunya, with ten of the eleven teams participating in the test sessions. The most notable absentees were Fernando Alonso and Kimi Räikkönen, who were still under contract at Renault and McLaren respectively. Jenson Button was also absent as he had suffered a hairline fracture on his ribs after a go-karting accident in preparations for the November tests. Lewis Hamilton made his first appearance in a McLaren since being confirmed as Alonso's team-mate for 2007.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL0MoT-wn_4
I can't remember if it was Peter Windsor, or another but I am sure I heard someone say that Lewis's arrival in F1 has been a little overplayed and he'd done quite a bit of mileage in an F1 car before the start of the 2007 season.
This link says testing was limited to 30,000 KM per constructor per season from 2008:
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_f1...
I can't remember if it was Peter Windsor, or another but I am sure I heard someone say that Lewis's arrival in F1 has been a little overplayed and he'd done quite a bit of mileage in an F1 car before the start of the 2007 season.
This link says testing was limited to 30,000 KM per constructor per season from 2008:
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_f1...
Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 30th July 19:42
Crafty_ said:
Testing bans were already in place by the time Lewis was waiting in the wings, the thousands of miles of testing was mostly sim work IIRC.
No it wasn't.After LH was GP2 champ at the 2006 Italian GP - at the beginning of September. At the grid of the F1 race Ron The Don famously told LH that he got the drive.
After the GP there was a major testing at Silverstone which when LH broke his cherry. I went to all 3 days when it was free to get in.
Floor Tom said:
celicawrc said:
They should sack Whitmarsh and bring back Ron, then they would definitely be back at the front.
The F1 team needs to be thoroughly firewalled against every other McLaren enterprise. I believe Todt took this approach at Ferarri; now dismantled by Luca M, they have lost their way.
An F1 team effectively needs to operate like an SAS unit. Improvise adapt overcome (US marines) and all that.
entropy said:
Apparently its Martin Whitmarsh's fault and his implementation of the matrix system of management. Its like a committee: ideas get bounced around but there's no authority; hence Bouiller recently said McLaren's culture needs to change.
Its more complex than that, watch interviews with Dennis, he was a fan of the matrix system, and some form of it will still be in place, simple reason, 1 person can't run a modern F1 team, its inefficient, they can't deal with every decision needed to be made. Also Ron didn't want to rely on one superstar designer as if they leave your are screwed! Much better to share that around.The key is above that to have a strategic direction or a vision, this is what Red Bull have done to perfection. Newey sits above a talented team giving a design direction, so everyone is pulling in the same direction but he isn't making every decision about the car. Brawn in effect built something similar at mercedes, the culture change at mclaren eric bangs on about is most likely someone coming up with that vision, culture etc so everyone can pull in the same direction
P-Jay said:
The F1 engines are the same for both the Mercedes Team and their customers - it probably works better in the Mercedes as they had it's exact spec a long time before it's customers and have made the best use of it's unique layout.
In regards to the OP - they could be in line for a decade or more in the doldrums like Williams.
The Honda thing is a big issue - I wouldn't be surprised, if, like Mercedes did for this year they've thrown all their efforts into 2015 at the expense of 2014 - there's a finite amount of R&D work you can do with the resources you have - the problem they face is that whereas all the other teams who are keeping with the same engine supplier can start 2015 with version 1.2 of the car that finishes Abu Dhabi - they've really cocked up in the past when they've thrown out a really fast car to start the next season with a blank sheet of paper design and been miles off the pace.
IMO the challenges they face, driver-wise they've got a great pairing at the moment, Kevin looks like he's going to be very special with a bit more experience and he's shown up Jenson a few times, he could be proper replacement for Lewis Hamilton's explosive style that is a good counter to Jenson's measured style - but if Jenson retires at the end of the year or they are tempted to get in a big headliner like Vettel / Alonso it could be more trouble than it's worth. In the pit / wall / factory though they're haemorrhaging talent.
Sponsors ARE an issue, it's easy to look at the giant that is McL and it's technology centre and it's range of road cars and think they've got all the money in the world, but the truth is, it's not the 60's and 70's they're not in the business of throwing all their money away for the love of the sport - they need to make sure they're still around in 2015, 2016 and beyond - just because they might have $500m in resources, they can't spend it all hoping that Honda will bung them a trillion yen or allow them to sell all their body space to Cilit Bang.
I suspect they're going to have an all-or-nothing 2015, either they'll do a Brawn and having something that's a league ahead of the rest of the field - or they'll have an under developed car and be fighting with Caterham at the back.
Not so true about all engines the same, Merc have taken steps to withhold development from mclaren its been reported. Force India are rumoured to have a better engine than Mclaren because of this freezeIn regards to the OP - they could be in line for a decade or more in the doldrums like Williams.
The Honda thing is a big issue - I wouldn't be surprised, if, like Mercedes did for this year they've thrown all their efforts into 2015 at the expense of 2014 - there's a finite amount of R&D work you can do with the resources you have - the problem they face is that whereas all the other teams who are keeping with the same engine supplier can start 2015 with version 1.2 of the car that finishes Abu Dhabi - they've really cocked up in the past when they've thrown out a really fast car to start the next season with a blank sheet of paper design and been miles off the pace.
IMO the challenges they face, driver-wise they've got a great pairing at the moment, Kevin looks like he's going to be very special with a bit more experience and he's shown up Jenson a few times, he could be proper replacement for Lewis Hamilton's explosive style that is a good counter to Jenson's measured style - but if Jenson retires at the end of the year or they are tempted to get in a big headliner like Vettel / Alonso it could be more trouble than it's worth. In the pit / wall / factory though they're haemorrhaging talent.
Sponsors ARE an issue, it's easy to look at the giant that is McL and it's technology centre and it's range of road cars and think they've got all the money in the world, but the truth is, it's not the 60's and 70's they're not in the business of throwing all their money away for the love of the sport - they need to make sure they're still around in 2015, 2016 and beyond - just because they might have $500m in resources, they can't spend it all hoping that Honda will bung them a trillion yen or allow them to sell all their body space to Cilit Bang.
I suspect they're going to have an all-or-nothing 2015, either they'll do a Brawn and having something that's a league ahead of the rest of the field - or they'll have an under developed car and be fighting with Caterham at the back.
mclaren are one of the sports great team, but so have many others, none have a god given right to win.
They have under performed for years, due to a number of reasons, Honda may well hope them bounce back, but i wouldn't be surprised to see 2015 be a painful year before it clicking in 2016
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