Is it mclarens turn for the gradual decline?
Discussion
AlexS said:
Dakkon said:
Crafty_ said:
All the Merc engines are exactly the same. The difference is in the chassis and aero.
All Merc engines are not the sameETA: there was also Merc's surprise to it's customers about the exhaust. Apparently customer cars were all designed and packaged around the idea of a conventional exhaust manifold. Then merc delivered one much smaller and tighter, to customers surprise. They of course had the packaging advantage. (all regurgitated from f1technical.)
Edited by suffolk009 on Wednesday 6th August 11:29
Gaz. said:
The customer teams were given an engine in August 2013. FI & Williams then started to design their cars around it. Mclaren decided not to change theirs which is why their side pods look so different as their radiators sit longitudinal and are bloody massive, with enormous cooling outlets near the back of the car. If you paint all the Merc powered cars plain white and take the nose cones off you'd struggle to tell them all apart, except for the Mclaren.
What gets me is that we saw every car naked in Australia FP1 yet Mclaren haven't changed their cooling- many predicted a rearrangement of their sidepods, cooling chimneys and the wishbone fairings by Spain. They are fortunate that their drivers have lost the least points compared to Williams & Force India otherwise the table would look really bad for them.
Because despite the biggest operations budget in their history, i think its safe to assume all those resources are going into next years car.What gets me is that we saw every car naked in Australia FP1 yet Mclaren haven't changed their cooling- many predicted a rearrangement of their sidepods, cooling chimneys and the wishbone fairings by Spain. They are fortunate that their drivers have lost the least points compared to Williams & Force India otherwise the table would look really bad for them.
Strange though as 14/15 cars will be much the same, so 1/2 a second found now is 1/2 a second for next year as well.
revrange said:
Because despite the biggest operations budget in their history, i think its safe to assume all those resources are going into next years car.
Strange though as 14/15 cars will be much the same, so 1/2 a second found now is 1/2 a second for next year as well.
I'm not sure that is necessarily true as the new engine will fundamentally alter the car's characteristics. Strange though as 14/15 cars will be much the same, so 1/2 a second found now is 1/2 a second for next year as well.
revrange said:
Because despite the biggest operations budget in their history, i think its safe to assume all those resources are going into next years car.
Strange though as 14/15 cars will be much the same, so 1/2 a second found now is 1/2 a second for next year as well.
Isn't that what they've been doing for the last few seasons? Strange though as 14/15 cars will be much the same, so 1/2 a second found now is 1/2 a second for next year as well.
Despite having the best engine McLaren gave only the 5th or 6th best car, that's pretty poor however you look at it. Can't see the Honda engine making much difference.
RYH64E said:
Isn't that what they've been doing for the last few seasons?
Despite having the best engine McLaren gave only the 5th or 6th best car, that's pretty poor however you look at it. Can't see the Honda engine making much difference.
Agree its not been good enough, since 09, they have tried to basically play catch up each season and out develop Red Bull and lost that fight. 2012 was the worst, they ended the year with the quickest car and through it in the bin to go radical for 2013, and really haven't recovered since.Despite having the best engine McLaren gave only the 5th or 6th best car, that's pretty poor however you look at it. Can't see the Honda engine making much difference.
Lots of reasons behind this, but as i said i should imagine that $100m advance from Honda isn't being spent on making a mercedes powered car to go fast but on next year.
As i said slightly strange as carry over to next year could be high, unless Honda packing is going to be very different, although i imagine they will follow Merc lead on split charger, cooling etc
revrange said:
RYH64E said:
Isn't that what they've been doing for the last few seasons?
Despite having the best engine McLaren gave only the 5th or 6th best car, that's pretty poor however you look at it. Can't see the Honda engine making much difference.
Agree its not been good enough, since 09, they have tried to basically play catch up each season and out develop Red Bull and lost that fight. 2012 was the worst, they ended the year with the quickest car and through it in the bin to go radical for 2013, and really haven't recovered since.Despite having the best engine McLaren gave only the 5th or 6th best car, that's pretty poor however you look at it. Can't see the Honda engine making much difference.
Lots of reasons behind this, but as i said i should imagine that $100m advance from Honda isn't being spent on making a mercedes powered car to go fast but on next year.
As i said slightly strange as carry over to next year could be high, unless Honda packing is going to be very different, although i imagine they will follow Merc lead on split charger, cooling etc
slipstream 1985 said:
F1 drives need to go more like the football career wher you start low get to a low top team then after a few years get your shot at the big team before gradually declining and ending up at bumtown rovers for kicks.
You mean like Ryan Giggs and the young Man Utd team players that would never win anything playing kids. 
revrange said:
Its more complex than that, watch interviews with Dennis, he was a fan of the matrix system, and some form of it will still be in place, simple reason, 1 person can't run a modern F1 team, its inefficient, they can't deal with every decision needed to be made. Also Ron didn't want to rely on one superstar designer as if they leave your are screwed! Much better to share that around.
The key is above that to have a strategic direction or a vision, this is what Red Bull have done to perfection. Newey sits above a talented team giving a design direction, so everyone is pulling in the same direction but he isn't making every decision about the car. Brawn in effect built something similar at mercedes, the culture change at mclaren eric bangs on about is most likely someone coming up with that vision, culture etc so everyone can pull in the same direction
The critical tone of Hughes suggests McLaren workforce in low spirits. Hints at the stressed out, unsettled workforce: bureaucratic, high aero staff turnover. The key is above that to have a strategic direction or a vision, this is what Red Bull have done to perfection. Newey sits above a talented team giving a design direction, so everyone is pulling in the same direction but he isn't making every decision about the car. Brawn in effect built something similar at mercedes, the culture change at mclaren eric bangs on about is most likely someone coming up with that vision, culture etc so everyone can pull in the same direction
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/the-new-mclar...
entropy said:
The critical tone of Hughes suggests McLaren workforce in low spirits. Hints at the stressed out, unsettled workforce: bureaucratic, high aero staff turnover.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/the-new-mclar...
For me, Mark is the best hack on the grid. 100 times better than he who should no longer effect a ponytail.http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/the-new-mclar...
Essentially he is highlighting a McLaren that is in the ruts that Williams followed until last year. One only has to look at the 'new' Williams to see what a change in management and ethos does to a team.
I personally think that Boullier is of the same mould as Pat. Less an engineer than Pat, admitted, but an organiser of people. RD had said that turning McLaren round is not a 5 minute job.
But is Honda really going to be bang on the pace in 2015? Depends on whether Gilles still has 'it'.
no chance of McLaren picking up a pot in 2015, but every chance RD's future relies on delivering in 2016.
rubystone said:
Essentially he is highlighting a McLaren that is in the ruts that Williams followed until last year. One only has to look at the 'new' Williams to see what a change in management and ethos does to a team.
Motorsport podcast has Pat Symonds this month and (as per usual) a damn worth listening to. He pointed out Williams had talented personnel but lacked confidence and changed working processes. Ex-Ferrari now Merc honcho Aldo Costa has now criticized Ferrari lacking vision and Hughes claims a senior engineer turned down Ferrari because of its sacking culture.
jsf said:
slipstream 1985 said:
F1 drives need to go more like the football career wher you start low get to a low top team then after a few years get your shot at the big team before gradually declining and ending up at bumtown rovers for kicks.
You mean like Ryan Giggs and the young Man Utd team players that would never win anything playing kids. rubystone said:
For me, Mark is the best hack on the grid. 100 times better than he who should no longer effect a ponytail.
Essentially he is highlighting a McLaren that is in the ruts that Williams followed until last year. One only has to look at the 'new' Williams to see what a change in management and ethos does to a team.
I personally think that Boullier is of the same mould as Pat. Less an engineer than Pat, admitted, but an organiser of people. RD had said that turning McLaren round is not a 5 minute job.
But is Honda really going to be bang on the pace in 2015? Depends on whether Gilles still has 'it'.
no chance of McLaren picking up a pot in 2015, but every chance RD's future relies on delivering in 2016.
He writes some good stuff, but also writes some crap, and who can forget his big world exclusive on Sky about the merc engine, that was broken emm months before by others.Essentially he is highlighting a McLaren that is in the ruts that Williams followed until last year. One only has to look at the 'new' Williams to see what a change in management and ethos does to a team.
I personally think that Boullier is of the same mould as Pat. Less an engineer than Pat, admitted, but an organiser of people. RD had said that turning McLaren round is not a 5 minute job.
But is Honda really going to be bang on the pace in 2015? Depends on whether Gilles still has 'it'.
no chance of McLaren picking up a pot in 2015, but every chance RD's future relies on delivering in 2016.
As i said teams can bang on about lots of things but unless there is a common vision and direction, it won't go anywhere, and i guess that is what Dennis/Bouiller are trying to bring to Mclaren.
Fully agree Pat would have been good at Mclarne but i guess Dennis was looking for someone who can do the job for the next 10-15 years not 5.
There's only so long McLaren can trade on their name and reputation, they need results to sustain their overheads and ambition. They're too big to be a mid table team, but the opposition are well funded and very professional, it won't be easy for McLaren to regain their position at the top IMO.
RYH64E said:
There's only so long McLaren can trade on their name and reputation, they need results to sustain their overheads and ambition. They're too big to be a mid table team, but the opposition are well funded and very professional, it won't be easy for McLaren to regain their position at the top IMO.
I agree, but manufacturer support should see them back to winning ways. certainly have the budget for it now, although if they produce a dog in 2016 one wonders how long Honda would stick around.revrange said:
...although if they produce a dog in 2016 one wonders how long Honda would stick around.
As we've seen in recent years with Jaguar, Toyota, BMW, Honda and Renault, they only stick around for as long as their marketing department wants to, F1 is nothing more than a tool to sell road cars for them.RYH64E said:
As we've seen in recent years with Jaguar, Toyota, BMW, Honda and Renault, they only stick around for as long as their marketing department wants to, F1 is nothing more than a tool to sell road cars for them.
Honda are different. Engineering is what interests them. Their return to F1 as an engine supplier fits with that ethos.I do not think it's about McLaren's gradual decline, more about some other teams' gradual ascendancy.
Red Bull in particular in recent years. The reliability of various components also played a great part, not least those Renault power plants and superb team back up from RB. Not to mention any contribution Newey made.
Move on to this season, setting aside a couple of lucky RB wins, all teams with one exception appear, repeat appear to be in decline.
Red Bull in particular in recent years. The reliability of various components also played a great part, not least those Renault power plants and superb team back up from RB. Not to mention any contribution Newey made.
Move on to this season, setting aside a couple of lucky RB wins, all teams with one exception appear, repeat appear to be in decline.
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