Is it mclarens turn for the gradual decline?

[RYH64E]

MGJohn said:

I do not think it's about McLaren's gradual decline, more about some other teams' gradual ascendancy.

Red Bull in particular in recent years. The reliability of various components also played a great part, not least those Renault power plants and superb team back up from RB. Not to mention any contribution Newey made.

Move on to this season, setting aside a couple of lucky RB wins, all teams with one exception appear, repeat appear to be in decline.

McLaren are doing particularly badly though, Red Bull and Ferrari have the excuse of inferior engines whereas McLaren have the best engine but only the fifth or sixth best car. They haven't been at the front of the field for quite a few years, they've won just one championship in the last 15 years (assuming they don't win this year).

[RYH64E]

rubystone said:

RYH64E said:

As we've seen in recent years with Jaguar, Toyota, BMW, Honda and Renault, they only stick around for as long as their marketing department wants to, F1 is nothing more than a tool to sell road cars for them.

Honda are different. Engineering is what interests them. Their return to F1 as an engine supplier fits with that ethos.

However you dress it up, Honda are in the business of selling cars, F1 is a tool to help them do that.

[rubystone]

RYH64E said:

However you dress it up, Honda are in the business of selling cars, F1 is a tool to help them do that.

Do you view Honda as a performance car maker? I don't. I cannot imagine many OAPs deciding on the strength of the MP4/30s performance to go out and buy a new Jazz...so why are Honda in F1? For the engineering, not to flog more beige motors.

[RYH64E]

rubystone said:

RYH64E said:

However you dress it up, Honda are in the business of selling cars, F1 is a tool to help them do that.

Do you view Honda as a performance car maker? I don't. I cannot imagine many OAPs deciding on the strength of the MP4/30s performance to go out and buy a new Jazz...so why are Honda in F1? For the engineering, not to flog more beige motors.

Is Renault a performance car manufacturer then? They seem to think F1 makes sense for them.

[rubystone]

RYH64E said:

Is Renault a performance car manufacturer then? They seem to think F1 makes sense for them.

I thought we were talking about Honda here?

[RemarkLima]

I'm with RYH64E here, F1 is marketing entirely. Most Renault's sold are beige as well, yet they spent a lot of time telling everyone how their multi championship winning engine tech goes into every kangoo van... Right. Of course it does...

Honda will only be there to get reflected glory, and sell more cars. And give credibility to the new NSX (should it ever happen) and any other performance kit they may make.

I'd love to think they spend millions just for the love of it, but that just isn't true.

[RemarkLima]

Gaz. said:

NR750 & NSX, both built for sts and giggles and sold at a loss. Even the S2000 and some of the Mugen stuff & RC45 was barely profitable, if at all.

They would have been said to be "halo models" to make the brand desirable and make people buy the lesser stuff by association.

Or the fact that they lost so much on them is why they just make a load of boring shopping trolleys now. The board would never green light something like it again ;-)

[rubystone]

RemarkLima said:

They would have been said to be "halo models" to make the brand desirable and make people buy the lesser stuff by association.

Or the fact that they lost so much on them is why they just make a load of boring shopping trolleys now. The board would never green light something like it again ;-)

Certainly Renault agree with you that their F1effort doesn't help them sell cars...they shifted to Infiniti with RBR. They also run Viry in a different way...certainly last year Rob White was tasked with making money out of the concern. Not sure whether Gohsn has changed his mind again though!

But we are talking about Honda here and I am sure that you are fully aware of how Honda use the F1 engine project to rotate engineers through into their road division? But we will never agree on our points, so let's agree to disagree

[RYH64E]

Rolex, Santander and Vodafone don't make performance cars either but they still use F1 as a means to promote and sell their products. Honda don't need to invest £100Ms just to give a small number of their engineers a bit of largely non relevant engine experience, there are much cheaper and more effective ways of doing that.

If they didn't think it was going to enhance their brand they wouldn't do it, ultimately it's all about selling boring shopping trolleys, and F1 has sold its soul to the car manufacturers so they can make engines supposedly more relevant to those boring shopping trolleys.

[rubystone]

RYH64E said:

Rolex, Santander and Vodafone don't make performance cars either but they still use F1 as a means to promote and sell their products. Honda don't need to invest £100Ms just to give a small number of their engineers a bit of largely non relevant engine experience, there are much cheaper and more effective ways of doing that.

If they didn't think it was going to enhance their brand they wouldn't do it, ultimately it's all about selling boring shopping trolleys, and F1 has sold its soul to the car manufacturers so they can make engines supposedly more relevant to those boring shopping trolleys.

If that were the case we'd have 4 cylinder 160cc engines in F1...But we don't.

Rolex sell luxury watches to aspirational people who watch tennis and Motorsport. Santander's CEO happens to be a huge F1 fan. Vodafone aren't in f1 any more.

Honda sell nicely engineered cars with great engines to old people.

[belleair302]

However Honda wish to sell sporty cars to younger people, as Mercedes have been doing for ten years or so.....in addition to using f1 as a technology showcase for engineering which is what Honda are all about.....engines, millions of them from generators and lawnmowers to mopeds, high performance bikes and turbo charged cars.

[rubystone]

belleair302 said:

However Honda wish to sell sporty cars to younger people, as Mercedes have been doing for ten years or so.....in addition to using f1 as a technology showcase for engineering which is what Honda are all about.....engines, millions of them from generators and lawnmowers to mopeds, high performance bikes and turbo charged cars.

Now look what you've done...I paid for the full half hour....

Very reasoned post though

RYD and I do agree on one thing...current F1 cars sound 'st'

[RemarkLima]

PW said:

1998 - 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, DQ*, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th

• They scored the most points; the car wasn't rubbish, just the management.

What definition of "at the front" or "quite a few years" are you using?

Hate to break it to you chap, it's 2014 at the moment. 1998 was 16 years ago... I think most would class that as "quite a few years".

Or do you mean 2008 for Hamilton's title? Still, 6 years is a fair while too...

[RemarkLima]

rubystone said:

If that were the case we'd have 4 cylinder 160cc engines in F1...But we don't.

Rolex sell luxury watches to aspirational people who watch tennis and Motorsport. Santander's CEO happens to be a huge F1 fan. Vodafone aren't in f1 any more.

Honda sell nicely engineered cars with great engines to old people.

It nearly was i4 engines as we all know, but between Ferrari not wanting to make a 4 pot (I can see why) and everyone wanting to use the block as a stressed member it went v6.

Not sure if you're just trying to make a point there?

As belleair accurately says, it will bring the age of the down, just like Mercedes. As is well discussed elsewhere, road car tech is already beyond f1 for engineering, so I can't see the tech angle myself.

[RYH64E]

PW said:

1998 - 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd, DQ*, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th

• They scored the most points; the car wasn't rubbish, just the management.

What definition of "at the front" or "quite a few years" are you using?

In the 80s McLaren won 5 championships, in the 90s they won 4, since 2000 they've won just one, Ferrari have won 6, Red Bull 4, Renault 2, Brawn 1, Mercedes will win this year and McLaren will be lucky if they finish 5th (again). By the standards McLaren set themselves that's not acceptable.

Edited by RYH64E on Sunday 10th August 18:56

[RYH64E]

PW said:

I can't quite hear you over the clanking sound of those goalposts being moved...

If second place is first of the losers how should their current position of 6th be considered? Front running teams in recent years have been Red Bull, Ferrari and now Mercedes, with guest appearances from Renault and Brawn, not McLaren, and they're getting worse.

[Mr_Thyroid]

Interestingly if you swap Button's results for Alonso's and Magnussen's for Raikkonen's, McLaren would be 3rd in the championship and Ferrari 6th.

.......if you get my drift........



(in case you don't get my drift I'm saying you may get better results with different drivers)

(I'm also implying that Ferrari are in just as much trouble)

[MGJohn]

RYH64E said:

In the 80s McLaren won 5 championships, in the 90s they won 4, since 2000 they've won just one, Ferrari have won 6, Red Bull 4, Renault 2, Brawn 1, Mercedes will win this year and McLaren will be lucky if they finish 5th (again). By the standards McLaren set themselves that's not acceptable.

There has been more effective and much wider variety of competition since 2000. Many of those alsorans have been hard to finish in front of for the successful team each season. This season is shaping up to be an exception. Mercedes-Benz F1 are that far in front. However, I have a sneaky suspicion that Red Bull will continue to close the gap this year. Make that open the gap to those in third or below.

[tertius]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Interestingly if you swap Button's results for Alonso's and Magnussen's for Raikkonen's, McLaren would be 3rd in the championship and Ferrari 6th.

.......if you get my drift........



(in case you don't get my drift I'm saying you may get better results with different drivers)

(I'm also implying that Ferrari are in just as much trouble)

Err ... given that only the drivers earn the points with THEIR team's cars) then if you swap the results around then of course the teams change position. If you swap Button's results for Rosberg's and Magnussens's for Hamilton's then bingo suddenly McLaren are first and Mercedes sixth.

I don't think that tells us that Mercedes are in trouble though, unless I'm due a whoosh parrot.

[Mr_Thyroid]

tertius said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

Interestingly if you swap Button's results for Alonso's and Magnussen's for Raikkonen's, McLaren would be 3rd in the championship and Ferrari 6th.

.......if you get my drift........



(in case you don't get my drift I'm saying you may get better results with different drivers)

(I'm also implying that Ferrari are in just as much trouble)

Err ... given that only the drivers earn the points with THEIR team's cars) then if you swap the results around then of course the teams change position. If you swap Button's results for Rosberg's and Magnussens's for Hamilton's then bingo suddenly McLaren are first and Mercedes sixth.

I don't think that tells us that Mercedes are in trouble though, unless I'm due a whoosh parrot.

Gee-wizz - I don't know what a whoosh parrot is but did you read my whole post, all 5 lines? I chose the Ferrari drivers for a reason.... to make a point about how I perceive the relative qualities of the cars these once great teams have produced and the drivers they employ.
i.e. the cars are probably pretty equal but Ferrari have Alonso, McLaren don't.