WTF? Bernie bribes his way out of bribery case?
Discussion
Agent Orange said:
Eric Mc said:
That makes it OK?
No of course not but if a democratic society has been unable to find a solution in a couple of hundred years I'm not about to lose any sleep over it.That is a terribly negative and hopeless (in its true sense) way of viewing the world.
Eric Mc said:
So - your attitude is "people will always do bad things and, since this will always be the case, there is no point in trying to stop them"?
That is a terribly negative and hopeless (in its true sense) way of viewing the world.
Negative? No. Realist yes. But 'bad things' come in many forms. A financial conflict between two extremely wealthy parties isn't high on my list.That is a terribly negative and hopeless (in its true sense) way of viewing the world.
Some objective thoughts for consideration in this particular argument:
The suggestion is that Bernie paid a Banker to ensure a deal went the way he wanted. He used his own money to do this. No public money was squandered and nobody lost out - other than the party that lost out on the deal but who's to say they would have won the deal anyway? You can't claim damages for something that may or may not have happened.
Be that as it may, it's still bribery which is illegal in most countries so it is right that those accused are tried and punished if found guilty.
If found guilty, Bernie would undoubtedly end up in prison, where he would probably end his days, most likely an 'open' prison which in the UK, costs the Tax Payer around £40k per year per prisoner and I doubt unlikely to be much different in Germany. If he does 5 years, that's a £200k burden to the tax payer (although I know there are many that would willingly invest this amount to see this happen:-)
As it stands, the German taxpayer will benefit from £100m. Billionaire or not, that's a big cheque to write.
I'm not offering an opinion as to whether this is right or wrong, just some perspective to consider.
The suggestion is that Bernie paid a Banker to ensure a deal went the way he wanted. He used his own money to do this. No public money was squandered and nobody lost out - other than the party that lost out on the deal but who's to say they would have won the deal anyway? You can't claim damages for something that may or may not have happened.
Be that as it may, it's still bribery which is illegal in most countries so it is right that those accused are tried and punished if found guilty.
If found guilty, Bernie would undoubtedly end up in prison, where he would probably end his days, most likely an 'open' prison which in the UK, costs the Tax Payer around £40k per year per prisoner and I doubt unlikely to be much different in Germany. If he does 5 years, that's a £200k burden to the tax payer (although I know there are many that would willingly invest this amount to see this happen:-)
As it stands, the German taxpayer will benefit from £100m. Billionaire or not, that's a big cheque to write.
I'm not offering an opinion as to whether this is right or wrong, just some perspective to consider.
Agent Orange said:
After all what would a long and expensive investigative trial at the expense of the German tax payer achieve? Some romantics might suggest justice but ultimately someone with a lot of money would be forced to pay another wealthy individual or company a sum of money and the German law system foots the bill for agreeing the settlement. Granted legal fees would be paid.
That is very much putting a price on justice though.It would mean that if an individual could put forward a case that the cost of prosecuting them would go above a certain value for money cut off point, the case would simply be settled.
They could create some mathematical tables to work out whether it was worth it.
Give each crime, cost and a time estimate a score and go from there. Oh, don't forget age of perp and who they know.
Perhaps they already have.
longshot said:
That is very much putting a price on justice though.
It would mean that if an individual could put forward a case that the cost of prosecuting them would go above a certain value for money cut off point, the case would simply be settled.
It's not unique in Germany no matter how unpalatable it may appear.It would mean that if an individual could put forward a case that the cost of prosecuting them would go above a certain value for money cut off point, the case would simply be settled.
http://blogs.wsj.com/corruption-currents/2011/06/0...
But for such financial crimes there will always be a price on justice. How many times do you see posts on PH where someone has bought a car from xyz garage and the deal has gone sour? The individual wants the full force of the law to administer justice against the garage only to learn they'll likely incur large legal bills many times greater than they lost originally. How much do you want or are prepared to pay to get justice now?
Such garages can continue trading because as an individual you power is limited.
Bernie takes advantage of the same problem in F1. FIA doesn't own F1 and the teams are too busy trying to shaft each other to ever consider ownership.
Eric Mc said:
Agent Orange said:
Eric Mc said:
You do recognise the difference between a civil action and a criminal case?
From a morality perspective no I don't.In English Law (which probably differs substantially from German Law) there is a clear distinction.
If I were to take the contrarian view, criminal prosecutions are more of an artificial construct than civil wrongs.
The concept of tort having evolved from equity and an injured party being put back into a position it would have been had it not been dealt with inequitably by the wrongdoer.
Criminal cases see a 'wrongdoer' assessed against an arbitrary standard developed by the judiciary in prefer to protect 'society'. In some cases, statutory treatment of why is it isn't acceptable is perfectly appropriate - murder, rape, theft an many others come to mind.
The line is less clear in other 'criminal' offences. Previous laws on homosexuality for example. Bribery offences are one such area of grey. For instance, I am not convinced that various western businesses should suffer sanctions for bribery related to selling aircraft and such like to various foreign governments, where such practices (ie backsheesh) are cultural norms.
All a bit esoteric. All we know know, if Sky news is to be believed, is that he'd bought his way out of a difficult situation. It has allowed him to continue with CVC, so probably making up the shortfall within a few months, and on top of that, just to show contrition, his lawyer's made a joke about it.
It would be nice to think that CVC will now accept that a willingness to pay this amount of money does indicate some form of guilt, but then, that's unlikely. We are stuck with him.
It would be nice to think that CVC will now accept that a willingness to pay this amount of money does indicate some form of guilt, but then, that's unlikely. We are stuck with him.
It makes a pleasant change for the perpetrator of financial wrongdoing to get any punishment at all, they usually pocket their bonus whilst their employer pays the fine.
I don't see the problem with a financial crime being dealt with by way of a suitable financial penalty, especially if the penalty is large enough - and $100m is pretty substantial.
I don't see the problem with a financial crime being dealt with by way of a suitable financial penalty, especially if the penalty is large enough - and $100m is pretty substantial.
RYH64E said:
It makes a pleasant change for the perpetrator of financial wrongdoing to get any punishment at all, they usually pocket their bonus whilst their employer pays the fine.
I don't see the problem with a financial crime being dealt with by way of a suitable financial penalty, especially if the penalty is large enough - and $100m is pretty substantial.
Bernie values his freedom, would he have paid $500m?I don't see the problem with a financial crime being dealt with by way of a suitable financial penalty, especially if the penalty is large enough - and $100m is pretty substantial.
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