Max Verstappen to Race for Toro Rosso
Discussion
RacerMike said:
Realistically, any top driver from any highly competitive national or international series would probably be fairly competitive in an F1 car. However, to say it clearly isn't a challenge if a 17 year old can' is clearly b/s! Max Verstappen has a lot of experience and hasn't exactly embarrassed himself so far in his career.
You know, I think you're probably right. I wonder if that could have always been said? I suspect not.One thing, what experience has Max of anything like an F1 car? I thought he'd only been in F3 and karts?
REALIST123 said:
You know, I think you're probably right. I wonder if that could have always been said? I suspect not.
One thing, what experience has Max of anything like an F1 car? I thought he'd only been in F3 and karts?
Of course it was the same back in the day! It's almost always been about luck, money and talent (in that order).One thing, what experience has Max of anything like an F1 car? I thought he'd only been in F3 and karts?
Ultimately, why would he need experience beyond F3? They run reasonable amounts of downforce, are a single seater and are fairly quick. People make bigger jumps in club racing and no one says anything. A GT3 car is significantly more taxing to drive than a Caterham or saloon car, and yet plenty of people have made the jump very successfully.
bishbash said:
Does seem strange that apart from Vettel and Riccardio no other TR drivers have found another seat anywhere ever in F1. Is there something in their contracts that says it's on to Red Bull or bust out of the sport?
I think it's probably more likely that the Red Bull young drivers don't bring a whole lot of sponsorship, which is such a major point in most F1 teams nowadays. They're there because they can drive, they're being given a serious opportunity that they may not otherwise get unless their parents are ridiculously rich. Someone like JEV has neither impressed enough, nor brings with him any sort of decent sponsorship, so I think this could well be the end of the road for him. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Ricciardo behind the wheel of a Ferrari before his career's out...
RacerMike said:
REALIST123 said:
You know, I think you're probably right. I wonder if that could have always been said? I suspect not.
One thing, what experience has Max of anything like an F1 car? I thought he'd only been in F3 and karts?
Of course it was the same back in the day! It's almost always been about luck, money and talent (in that order).One thing, what experience has Max of anything like an F1 car? I thought he'd only been in F3 and karts?
Ultimately, why would he need experience beyond F3? They run reasonable amounts of downforce, are a single seater and are fairly quick. People make bigger jumps in club racing and no one says anything. A GT3 car is significantly more taxing to drive than a Caterham or saloon car, and yet plenty of people have made the jump very successfully.
andyps said:
RemarkLima said:
Did you watch the Olympics at all? Plenty of competitors, at the peak of their sport, under 20, and in some disciplines, the vast majority!
I don't watch the olympics as it happens, but 400 meters is is 400 meters regardless of age. An F1 car should be a challenge which takes experience to be able to handle if it is to remain the pinnacle of motor sport. Otherwise, what makes it worth watching? Some of the falling viewing figures are down to the lack of challenge I'm pretty sure, it can all look easy (and I know it isn't) but if it can be done by someone who is so young I think it sends a message that the challenge isn't particularly great and it doesn't need much in the way of experience to take it on. Which actually all indicates that LMP1 is the pinnacle of motor sport, but many of us knew that already.If a 16 year old completes a masters in science does that imply it is easy?
Dagnut said:
andyps said:
RemarkLima said:
Did you watch the Olympics at all? Plenty of competitors, at the peak of their sport, under 20, and in some disciplines, the vast majority!
I don't watch the olympics as it happens, but 400 meters is is 400 meters regardless of age. An F1 car should be a challenge which takes experience to be able to handle if it is to remain the pinnacle of motor sport. Otherwise, what makes it worth watching? Some of the falling viewing figures are down to the lack of challenge I'm pretty sure, it can all look easy (and I know it isn't) but if it can be done by someone who is so young I think it sends a message that the challenge isn't particularly great and it doesn't need much in the way of experience to take it on. Which actually all indicates that LMP1 is the pinnacle of motor sport, but many of us knew that already.If a 16 year old completes a masters in science does that imply it is easy?
REALIST123 said:
RacerMike said:
REALIST123 said:
You know, I think you're probably right. I wonder if that could have always been said? I suspect not.
One thing, what experience has Max of anything like an F1 car? I thought he'd only been in F3 and karts?
Of course it was the same back in the day! It's almost always been about luck, money and talent (in that order).One thing, what experience has Max of anything like an F1 car? I thought he'd only been in F3 and karts?
Ultimately, why would he need experience beyond F3? They run reasonable amounts of downforce, are a single seater and are fairly quick. People make bigger jumps in club racing and no one says anything. A GT3 car is significantly more taxing to drive than a Caterham or saloon car, and yet plenty of people have made the jump very successfully.
Max is obviously talented in a race car, his success this year has proved that. But it doesn't necessarily mean he is ready for the move to F1 although obviously Red Bull think he is.
My concern is the overall logic behind this and the way it could impact on F1 and the sport more generally. There are plenty of people around who probably have similar talents but haven't had the breaks that Max has had, it is very difficult for anyone to get into F1 and if it is now possible to do so at the age of 16/17 then is there actually any hope for a 20 year old with great skills who has managed to finance his way into a middling F3 team that doesn't have the resources to win? If they don't see the chance to make it to F1 at that stage because they are already 3 years too old then what impact will it have on the grids for the lower formula?
It does seem that the new drivers are getting younger generally, it is easy to pick a few examples from the past to say it has always happened but they are very few and far between compared to recent times. I could be completely wrong, but it certainly doesn't seem great for the image of the sport to me. Certainly if compared to sports car racing there now seems to be more of a structure there to get to the top which demands experience and ability which F1 lacks - has a driver gone straight from a first season in cars driving a GT LM or GT3 to LMP1 the following season? If not (which would imply more experience is needed), is F1 really the pinnacle of the sport?
My concern is the overall logic behind this and the way it could impact on F1 and the sport more generally. There are plenty of people around who probably have similar talents but haven't had the breaks that Max has had, it is very difficult for anyone to get into F1 and if it is now possible to do so at the age of 16/17 then is there actually any hope for a 20 year old with great skills who has managed to finance his way into a middling F3 team that doesn't have the resources to win? If they don't see the chance to make it to F1 at that stage because they are already 3 years too old then what impact will it have on the grids for the lower formula?
It does seem that the new drivers are getting younger generally, it is easy to pick a few examples from the past to say it has always happened but they are very few and far between compared to recent times. I could be completely wrong, but it certainly doesn't seem great for the image of the sport to me. Certainly if compared to sports car racing there now seems to be more of a structure there to get to the top which demands experience and ability which F1 lacks - has a driver gone straight from a first season in cars driving a GT LM or GT3 to LMP1 the following season? If not (which would imply more experience is needed), is F1 really the pinnacle of the sport?
REALIST123 said:
Has he been in an F1 car, then? I didn't know that.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/28853857Look chaps you can argue all you like.
The bottom line is the proof is in the pudding. He will either shine (and if he does my word it'll be bright), or he won't. We've seen 19-21 year olds in F1 cars and they don't seem to do too badly.
If it helps, when I was his age I'd have been a liability in a car like that. A friend of mine was 17 going on 47 however... People are different.
The bottom line is the proof is in the pudding. He will either shine (and if he does my word it'll be bright), or he won't. We've seen 19-21 year olds in F1 cars and they don't seem to do too badly.
If it helps, when I was his age I'd have been a liability in a car like that. A friend of mine was 17 going on 47 however... People are different.
Dagnut said:
REALIST123 said:
Has he been in an F1 car, then? I didn't know that.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/28853857andyps said:
it is very difficult for anyone to get into F1 and if it is now possible to do so at the age of 16/17 then is there actually any hope for a 20 year old with great skills who has managed to finance his way into a middling F3 team that doesn't have the resources to win? If they don't see the chance to make it to F1 at that stage because they are already 3 years too old then what impact will it have on the grids for the lower formula?
How does Max's age have any bearing on this? Hes not setting a new standard for young drivers, he is already younger then all the drivers in his current class. He has matured and proven to be quicker than them in a much more competitive series. If there was a bunch of spotty teenagers lining up in that series you might have a point, but most are 19-22, Esteban Ocon who is leading is just about to turn 18.He was groomed for the sport exclusively from a very young age. He probably has more fast laps than the average 21 year old entering F1. He is second in the championships, he's consistent and quick.
Racing teams will still look for quick drivers, if you don't come through until your 28 what difference does it make?
Endurance racing requires more mental stamina and mechanical sympathy. F1 cars are so reliable now managing the tyres is the only real driver input into the mechanical performance of the car. He doesn't have to be winning races or placing, once he's quick he can learn the rest. Remember how raw and exciting Hamilton was? He still made rash errors but he really shook things up, Verstappen will have everyone on their toes, no one will want to be outdone by him..competition benefits the spectator
Dagnut said:
Remember how raw and exciting Hamilton was? He still made rash errors but he really shook things up, Verstappen will have everyone on their toes, no one will want to be outdone by him..competition benefits the spectator
Apart from having the need to win every race the only fault with his racecraft was weaving on the straight as soon as the lights went out; and it wasn't as if he made the habit of banging wheels, lairy driving style, or binning it?Kimi was criticized for jumping from Formula Renault and to F1 and he hasn't done a bad job overall has he?
DC did F3000 but looked out of depth at Williams but came of age at McLaren.
Michael Andretti knew a thing or two about racecraft from Indycars but he flopped at McLaren.
And you can someone like Jan Magnussen who wasn't all that was hyped up to be.
The truth of the matter is for criticisms aimed at young uns is that we won't know Max will perform; not even McLaren knew that Hamilton would be worthy of WDC in his first year.
entropy said:
Apart from having the need to win every race the only fault with his racecraft was weaving on the straight as soon as the lights went out; and it wasn't as if he made the habit of banging wheels, lairy driving style, or binning it?
Kimi was criticized for jumping from Formula Renault and to F1 and he hasn't done a bad job overall has he?
DC did F3000 but looked out of depth at Williams but came of age at McLaren.
Michael Andretti knew a thing or two about racecraft from Indycars but he flopped at McLaren.
And you can someone like Jan Magnussen who wasn't all that was hyped up to be.
The truth of the matter is for criticisms aimed at young uns is that we won't know Max will perform; not even McLaren knew that Hamilton would be worthy of WDC in his first year.
Great post.Kimi was criticized for jumping from Formula Renault and to F1 and he hasn't done a bad job overall has he?
DC did F3000 but looked out of depth at Williams but came of age at McLaren.
Michael Andretti knew a thing or two about racecraft from Indycars but he flopped at McLaren.
And you can someone like Jan Magnussen who wasn't all that was hyped up to be.
The truth of the matter is for criticisms aimed at young uns is that we won't know Max will perform; not even McLaren knew that Hamilton would be worthy of WDC in his first year.
V8 GRF said:
Yes but even they guy who graduated said that driving a real car, was completely different as he was just used to looking straight ahead at a screen and not turning his head to look into the corner as it unfolded. He described that as a whole new ball game and something he found difficult at first, so video games might be a good introduction but no substitute for the real thing.....
Its not you're right, but I think you learn the reflexes, and the competition is far greater than the real world. I think as someone pointed out too, learning how setup affects the balance of a car first hand is also a major advantage. I personally think the biggest advantage the PlayStation generation will have is their adaptability, jumping between different games and being not just competitive, but being top of the ranks, across different physics engines is no easy feat! You have to hone all of your reflexes and retune them again, so this new generation should be especially suited to major rule changes chonok said:
Don't understand the negativity.
Kids start off in other sports at 17 - what's the difference in F1?
Because driving a car isn't the same as kicking a ball around or running fast? I know that my driving capabilities have improved with time, and most race drivers say that they keep improving, therefore having the chance to improve in a lower formula would appear logical. It has already been pointed out that with TR if Max doesn't perform he will be out and that is likely to be the end of his F1 career (based on previous evidence) so it is a risk he is taking - I'm sure he knows that and I wish him well, but as already said, feel it undermines the "pinnacle of motorsport" image of F1.Kids start off in other sports at 17 - what's the difference in F1?
chonok said:
Why is it different?
My golfing abilities have improved over time, but I would still get trounced by a talented 17 year old.
Does a 17 year old playing in the premiership undermine the 'pinnacle of football'?
No idea, they are both sports that only require one ball so I have no knowledge or interest!My golfing abilities have improved over time, but I would still get trounced by a talented 17 year old.
Does a 17 year old playing in the premiership undermine the 'pinnacle of football'?
Edited by chonok on Thursday 21st August 13:01
Don't see what the big deal is. If you're good enough you're old enough.
Alex Brundle tweeted some advice that his dad gave him the other day. The stopwatch never lies.
As for being "grow-up" enough...well a few races back I was listening to Alonso and Vettel on the radio saying things that wouldn't have been out of place at an 8 year olds birthday party.
Alex Brundle tweeted some advice that his dad gave him the other day. The stopwatch never lies.
As for being "grow-up" enough...well a few races back I was listening to Alonso and Vettel on the radio saying things that wouldn't have been out of place at an 8 year olds birthday party.
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