Martin Whitmarsh leaves McLaren

[Flying Toilet]

I said it before on here, Whitmarsh spent more time focusing on other teams that McLaren.

[F1GTRUeno]

I think the bigger need is to get rid of Sam Michael surely?

[JonRB]

After stepping down in January, but not officially going until now, once suspects that Whitmarsh must have a *very* nice garden by now.

[thegobetween]

F1GTRUeno said:

I think the bigger need is to get rid of Sam Michael surely?

Can someone who may actually have working F1 knowledge please explain if this internet opinion of SM is valid?

[team underdog]

Whitmarsh was too nice to be a Team Boss. But maybe the problem was that he was never truly a boss, more an executive officer with the likes of Ron Dennis breathing over his shoulder.

I think McLarens biggest failings under his watch was taking a new philosophy with the 2013 car when they finally had a good car towards the end of 2012 and with stability in the tech regs would have been better to evolve that car rather than take a new path as they did and failed pretty miserably.

As with Ferrari though, you just sense there's a bigger issue with McLaren relating to the size of the organisation and it's committee structure. I heard a good quote from the weekend that part of Ferrari's problem is that all the technical team are so afraid of making mistakes or parts breaking that they "play safe" and over engineer the car rather than focus on performance.

[Flying Toilet]

thegobetween said:

F1GTRUeno said:

I think the bigger need is to get rid of Sam Michael surely?

Can someone who may actually have working F1 knowledge please explain if this internet opinion of SM is valid?

Put it this way, each team he has left has flourished since he left.

He just knows the right people, but so does Mr Bean, that's how he got that gig at the art gallery in LA.

[rubystone]

revrange said:

A yes man for Ron....dont forget eric "this guy is bringing us millions and you should all take him seriously" Boullier

To be honest whit marsh had already put in play much of what Dennis is taking credit for, hiring new staff, and Honda's £££

Not saying he was perfect but fact is last 20 years Mclaren haven't won as many world titles as they should have, and Ron was in charge for many of those championships

Boullier is a yes man to no one. But I'm more interested in your other points, especially the one concerning Honda. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but I thought RD was the man who negotiated the deal with Honda? Who told you Whitmarsh was instrumental in that?

[thegobetween]

Flying Toilet said:

Put it this way, each team he has left has flourished since he left.

He just knows the right people, but so does Mr Bean, that's how he got that gig at the art gallery in LA.

I'm assuming this is again hypothesis?

Edited by thegobetween on Wednesday 27th August 13:26

[Flying Toilet]

I am just passing on by what I've been told by a ex-Williams employee.

You will be lucky to find direct quotes here...

[oyster]

thegobetween said:

F1GTRUeno said:

I think the bigger need is to get rid of Sam Michael surely?

Can someone who may actually have working F1 knowledge please explain if this internet opinion of SM is valid?

I find this PH witch-hunt to be very distasteful.

Yet he's still in the team, employed and obviously trusted by his boss - the man who is worshipped by those very same witch-hunters.

How odd.

And childish.

[thegobetween]

oyster said:

I find this PH witch-hunt to be very distasteful.

Yet he's still in the team, employed and obviously trusted by his boss - the man who is worshipped by those very same witch-hunters.

How odd.

And childish.

Yes I agree.

[entropy]

Flying Toilet said:

Put it this way, each team he has left has flourished since he left.

He just knows the right people, but so does Mr Bean, that's how he got that gig at the art gallery in LA.

Jordan went downhill after he left

He was part of the mini-revival in the early 2000s of Williams and they were still st after Michaels left bar a fortuitous though opportunistic and unpredictably crap tyres debacle.

[HDM]

JonRB said:

After stepping down in January, but not officially going until now, once suspects that Whitmarsh must have a *very* nice garden by now.

I believe I read somewhere that Martin is a friend of Ron's, and that part of the delay was to let the dust settle and a fair severance package be worked out for an employee who had given 20+ years of service to Mclaren.

Maybe I'm looking at this through rose tinted specs, but I'd like to hope there is still some honour in F1.

[revrange]

rubystone said:

Boullier is a yes man to no one. But I'm more interested in your other points, especially the one concerning Honda. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but I thought RD was the man who negotiated the deal with Honda? Who told you Whitmarsh was instrumental in that?

Certainly whit marsh would have been heavily involved in getting Honda and it was whitmarsh who flew to Japan to announce the deal. At the time i thought it might have been ron as he was company chairman and it was such a big deal.

Maybe i was harsh on Boullier but he done him no favours with the whole Lotus investment last year, and carrying on this year with "big upgrade coming you will see" this season.

[revrange]

team underdog said:

Whitmarsh was too nice to be a Team Boss. But maybe the problem was that he was never truly a boss, more an executive officer with the likes of Ron Dennis breathing over his shoulder.

I think McLarens biggest failings under his watch was taking a new philosophy with the 2013 car when they finally had a good car towards the end of 2012 and with stability in the tech regs would have been better to evolve that car rather than take a new path as they did and failed pretty miserably.

As with Ferrari though, you just sense there's a bigger issue with McLaren relating to the size of the organisation and it's committee structure. I heard a good quote from the weekend that part of Ferrari's problem is that all the technical team are so afraid of making mistakes or parts breaking that they "play safe" and over engineer the car rather than focus on performance.

There was a lot of this he was too nice, i am sure as a corporate high flyer he had a tough side to him.

However where i think he was too nice was the whole FOTA thing, helping out brawn etc. As posted earlier he spent too much time on this stuff and maybe would have been better focusing on Mclaren winning.

I think its accepted now that the 2013 car was a massive mistake going radical for radical sake, and some say not going back to the 2012 car ultimately together with hiring Perez cost him his job. dennis is meant to have been pushing hard to run the 12 car in 13

[revrange]

Flying Toilet said:

I said it before on here, Whitmarsh spent more time focusing on other teams that McLaren.

Agreed

[Crafty_]

Whitmarsh appears to be a very nice bloke but ultimately he failed as a TP.
He was responsible for the whole team - design, engineering, testing, race operations, PR, everything.

The team got run down - lots left, they didn't bring on their junior engineers/techs. Once this started happening thing just got worse and worse.
There was a cosy little love-in with Button who consistently turned up at races, bhed about the car, shrugged his shoulders and said "we don't know whats wrong or how to fix it". This shows their technical ability was (is) poor - sure its not easy but they needed experienced people, working processes and structure to help them work through issues. Secondly I think Button either can't or wouldn't work with the team to figure out the problems. Lately he's been very nonchalant as if he can't really be bothered, he turns up, drives around, gets somewhere from 5th - 12th and considers it job done. Maybe an indication of overall morale ?

Their current situation is very similar to Merc in 2010 - they had bought the decimated Brawn team, lots of staff had left, no-one to lead technical programmes/structures or define processes, technically lacking and generally disorganised. Merc fixed this by hiring Bell, Costa, Willis to join Brawn. Everyone laughed "how many senior guys to they need?" everyone asked - evidently the answer was lots! Look where they are now.
I think McLaren are setting out on the same sort of journey, Ron knows that - he's just got to make sure it happens.

As far as Sam Michael goes I also find the witch hunt somewhat unpalatable. We always hear the "My mate who knows a bloke said..." stuff. As far as I can see most of the hate surrounds his tenure at Williams.. I think there is far more to the story.. he was actually in charge of the the race engineers initially (after being Heinz Harald-Frentzen's race engineer at Jordan).
Patrick Head was reducing his involvement with the race team and Michael gets his job, initially head was going to the R&D side of the business but with an overall aim of retirement. Massive, massive change for the team - Patrick had been around from the start - he'd been in the industry since the early 70s and with Williams from the mid 70s.
Now that experience was gone, at least from the day to day stuff. I think the team just expected someone else to turn up and pick up where Patrick had left off. Impossible.

Every engineers reference point, mentor and decision maker had gone. Michael had to step in to those shoes, at the same time get the trust of Frank and the approval of Head. Anyone (not least Frank) will tell you that Head is a tough guy to please, he likes things done his way and had a pretty short temper too.
Michael was also learning the job.

Also, remember that at the time Williams were going through a lean time financially, resources would have been limited.

Adam Parr's work on the business side really saved Williams, a big shame he left.

Michael probably wasn't the best bloke for the job, but I'm not sure anyone would have flourished given the situation.

Then he moves to McLaren as Sporting Director (rather than Technical Director) and according to some instantly fks up the pit crew team. Rubbish - those guys didn't suddenly become crap overnight, from what I understand there was a number new guys coming in to the crews.. maybe they didn't train well enough, maybe something technical changed, there was probably a host of causes that all contributed.
Regardless, what no-one ever mentions is that Michael took control of the pit crew training and set a practice/training programme up. Those same pit crews made the fastest pit stops of the year.

I think his skills suit the Sporting Director role better and presumably he prefers it too. If he was incompetent or unable to do the job Dennis would hve ditched him by now, Ron is not one to suffer fools gladly. The whole Williams thing was unfortunate, but not all of his making.

Edited by Crafty_ on Wednesday 27th August 21:25

[onyx39]

Very interesting and informative post. Thank you.
In light of the comments about Merc being successful after hiring lots of top management, can usually see Ross Brawn slotting in anywhere, or would his role be you similar to Bouliier?

[F1GTRUeno]

oyster said:

thegobetween said:

F1GTRUeno said:

I think the bigger need is to get rid of Sam Michael surely?

Can someone who may actually have working F1 knowledge please explain if this internet opinion of SM is valid?

I find this PH witch-hunt to be very distasteful.

Yet he's still in the team, employed and obviously trusted by his boss - the man who is worshipped by those very same witch-hunters.

How odd.

And childish.

I can only go off the evidence of a teams performance with him and then the subsequent performance after he leaves.

Incidentally McLaren have gotten a lot worse since he came on board...

Indeed it is only an armchair observation however, he may very well be fantastic at his job. I've no idea what his role fully encompasses nor the pressures he's under.

[carinaman]

As they say on Radio 4's More or Less, stats show, 'Correlation is not Causation'.