Jenson Button's future...?
Discussion
FeelingLucky said:
Really hard to argue with that.
When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
1986 and 1994 spring immediately to mind. No doubt I could dredge some more up from the depths of my memory....2005? 2007?...see, they are coming thick and fast now When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
FeelingLucky said:
Really hard to argue with that.
When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
When was the WDC last won with an inferior car? 2009 of course when JB won it. When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
The BGP 001 was superior in the first handful of races but the money dried up and the other teams after the break had far superior cars. Yet despite this onslaught from the other teams eating into his lead in great chunks each weekend he kept it together, just, and when it really mattered in Brazil he did exactly what he needed to do to win the WDC.
My belief is there are two types of champion. One that dominates for a period of time eg. Schumacher, Vettel or say Federer in tennis and one that grabs the single opportunity and takes it to win.
Before Brawn JB never had, and has not had since, a car capable of challenging for the WDC. He had one shot and he took it. Rubens didn’t and nearly imploded and lets not deride Rubens as he kept Michael more honest than any other driver. Ruben’s is a very good driver.
It is also sometimes worth remembering what all the fuss was about Jenson when he came to F1.
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2000/jan19/horton.htm...
“…in '97 by the President of the FMK, Mr. Ernest Buser, "With his smooth style and ability to pass anywhere," remarked President Buser, "Jenson reminds me of Senna."
The comparison of Button with Senna was an echo of an earlier comment by Paul Lemmens, of GKS Tecno, who ran Jenson for two years in Karting and had this to say about the young Briton: "In my 25 years in Karting there have only been two drivers of such outstanding ability, one was Ayrton Senna and the other, Jenson Button." Like Senna, Button commenced his car-racing career in Formula Ford and like Senna he won the championship in his first year.”
DanielSan said:
One thing I find strange reading this thread is how underrated JB is with a lot if people, he's a WDC which should be proof enough of his skill. But the fact he did more than match Hamilton, points wise beating him, over 3 seasons surely says how good he really is? Yet Lewis is given nigh on godly status by most while Jenson is put down. Odd.
I think part of it comes down to personality or perception of personality, Jenson seems quite relaxed and perhaps not as driven to win at all costs as others like Schumacher, Senna, Alonso, Hamilton etc. greygoose said:
DanielSan said:
One thing I find strange reading this thread is how underrated JB is with a lot if people, he's a WDC which should be proof enough of his skill. But the fact he did more than match Hamilton, points wise beating him, over 3 seasons surely says how good he really is? Yet Lewis is given nigh on godly status by most while Jenson is put down. Odd.
I think part of it comes down to personality or perception of personality, Jenson seems quite relaxed and perhaps not as driven to win at all costs as others like Schumacher, Senna, Alonso, Hamilton etc. Glad I'm not the only one who sees things this way. Far too many PHers posting on these F1 threads do so with mindset givens that Alonso, Hamilton are true "racers". Racing Gods getting 110% out of their Dog of a car. Impossible and Illogical Cap'n... Button "Can't be arsed always moans about the car" when both the previously mentioned drivers are Champion moaners about their cars. The bias is extreme and I for one find the same old biased mindset regurgitated stuff tiresome bovine excrement!
MGJohn who dares to criticise the Racing Gods. Ought to be a law agin it ..
Fact is both Hamilton and Alonso have had decent kit for many years and between them, only delivered three WDCs. Button had decent kit for half a season and delivered!
greygoose said:
I think part of it comes down to personality or perception of personality, Jenson seems quite relaxed and perhaps not as driven to win at all costs as others like Schumacher, Senna, Alonso, Hamilton etc.
JB's personality is similar to that of Prost's IMHO.Sure, the guys who wear their hearts on their sleeve polarise opinion; just look at Hunt - the establishment despised him - but those guys (included Gilles Villeneuve too) are by far in the majority when it comes to perception of their skills versus their peers.
Once again, take a straw pole from those who should know - hacks and paddock - and you'll find that Villeneuve was considered the quickest driver amongst his peers; a guy who could drage the performance out of any dog, as is Alonso nowadays.
But this thread is about JB - who is already signalling his intention to retire from F1 if McLaren do not extend his contract. He has a great life outside of F1 and a lot to offer as a driver manager/coach not to mention a broadcaster. And after his rocky start in F1, has remained consistently polite and humorous throughout his career.
rubystone said:
JB's personality is similar to that of Prost's IMHO.
That's an interesting viewpoint; but one I'm not sure about.The intelligence quotient difference between the pair whilst not vast, to my mind, is sizeable. Prost is far cleverer. In addition, subsequent reminiscing about his, at times fraught, relationship with Senna, shows a healthy EQ too.
Yes people babble on about 'Le Professuer' and a '...cold, calculating approach', but that's how he got the job done and kept piling up the points.
I do cede that in pure driving terms, there is some similarity to their (vs. Button) physical driving styles but when it comes to raw personality there's nothing close.
Save for the solitary and almost wildly stochastic 2009 season, Button's career - compared to genuine greats - is one of steady solidity. No real fireworks, a very decent F1 stint. But guys like Prost, Lauda, Senna, Jones, Piquet...intellectually they wouldn't have suffered the mediocrity for long, and kept vast tracts of their career peddling the midfield.
To those guys, you're either part of the solution, part of the problem or mere landscape. But they're always calculating, always thinking four, five moves ahead, like a Spassky. Their brains are just working at far higher revs, frequency and cadence than the others.
There's often correlation made between those of genuinely high-grade capabilities, whether that be in the corporate world or sports and low-level socio/psychopathic tendencies. Button, however is a nice guy. A nice guy with a talent that eclipses 99% of everyone else. They guys with that extra .5%-1%...well they are wired differently, and their whole personality, demeanour and desire is pivoted as such.
All my opinion
, but I personally don't see the personality similarities.He had a VASTLY superior car for the first HALF of the season basically meaning all that was needed was to bring the car home for the second half of the season to win the world championship.
I'd say the gap was bigger than that the mercs have this year, but had 55 year old team mate, so had no worries of having points taken away like the mercs have this season.
The BGP 001 was superior in the first handful of races but the money dried up and the other teams after the break had far superior cars. Yet despite this onslaught from the other teams eating into his lead in great chunks each weekend he kept it together, just, and when it really mattered in Brazil he did exactly what he needed to do to win the WDC.
My belief is there are two types of champion. One that dominates for a period of time eg. Schumacher, Vettel or say Federer in tennis and one that grabs the single opportunity and takes it to win.
Before Brawn JB never had, and has not had since, a car capable of challenging for the WDC. He had one shot and he took it. Rubens didn’t and nearly imploded and lets not deride Rubens as he kept Michael more honest than any other driver. Ruben’s is a very good driver.
It is also sometimes worth remembering what all the fuss was about Jenson when he came to F1.
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2000/jan19/horton.htm...
“…in '97 by the President of the FMK, Mr. Ernest Buser, "With his smooth style and ability to pass anywhere," remarked President Buser, "Jenson reminds me of Senna."
The comparison of Button with Senna was an echo of an earlier comment by Paul Lemmens, of GKS Tecno, who ran Jenson for two years in Karting and had this to say about the young Briton: "In my 25 years in Karting there have only been two drivers of such outstanding ability, one was Ayrton Senna and the other, Jenson Button." Like Senna, Button commenced his car-racing career in Formula Ford and like Senna he won the championship in his first year.”
I'd say the gap was bigger than that the mercs have this year, but had 55 year old team mate, so had no worries of having points taken away like the mercs have this season.
Agent Orange said:
FeelingLucky said:
Really hard to argue with that.
When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
When was the WDC last won with an inferior car? 2009 of course when JB won it. When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
The BGP 001 was superior in the first handful of races but the money dried up and the other teams after the break had far superior cars. Yet despite this onslaught from the other teams eating into his lead in great chunks each weekend he kept it together, just, and when it really mattered in Brazil he did exactly what he needed to do to win the WDC.
My belief is there are two types of champion. One that dominates for a period of time eg. Schumacher, Vettel or say Federer in tennis and one that grabs the single opportunity and takes it to win.
Before Brawn JB never had, and has not had since, a car capable of challenging for the WDC. He had one shot and he took it. Rubens didn’t and nearly imploded and lets not deride Rubens as he kept Michael more honest than any other driver. Ruben’s is a very good driver.
It is also sometimes worth remembering what all the fuss was about Jenson when he came to F1.
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2000/jan19/horton.htm...
“…in '97 by the President of the FMK, Mr. Ernest Buser, "With his smooth style and ability to pass anywhere," remarked President Buser, "Jenson reminds me of Senna."
The comparison of Button with Senna was an echo of an earlier comment by Paul Lemmens, of GKS Tecno, who ran Jenson for two years in Karting and had this to say about the young Briton: "In my 25 years in Karting there have only been two drivers of such outstanding ability, one was Ayrton Senna and the other, Jenson Button." Like Senna, Button commenced his car-racing career in Formula Ford and like Senna he won the championship in his first year.”
How can anyone question JB's ability? What about this 2011 win in Canada?
They did everything right that race, probably one of the best drives I've ever seen. I really hope they extend his contract for another year when the Honda engine arrives, he has so much to give to the development side. I also agree with the comments about him going into LMP1's, he certainly has the fitness level.
They did everything right that race, probably one of the best drives I've ever seen. I really hope they extend his contract for another year when the Honda engine arrives, he has so much to give to the development side. I also agree with the comments about him going into LMP1's, he certainly has the fitness level.
rubystone said:
FeelingLucky said:
Really hard to argue with that.
When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
1986 and 1994 spring immediately to mind. No doubt I could dredge some more up from the depths of my memory....2005? 2007?...see, they are coming thick and fast now When Jensen was given the car of the year, he won the WDC with it.
Admitedly against Rubens, but when did anybody win the WDC with an inferior car?
Back to JB - I think his radio style belies his ability sometimes. He is critical on the radio, and that can be construed as him not being able to drive the car.
This is not the case - as he himself points out, if he doesn't say what's wrong with the car then the team can't make it better...
If I were Ron and I had FA, LH or SV coming in, I'd loan Magnussen out somewhere (maybe Force India) if I rated his ability and keep JB for one more season before bringing KM back.
onyx39 said:
hilly10 said:
I to would love JB to do LMP1. The way McLaren are looking, if I were JB get out the end of the season, do a season with Williams then LMP1.
Could McLaren not field a team of Le Mans spec P1's the race?Muzzer79 said:
If I were Ron and I had FA, LH or SV coming in, I'd loan Magnussen out somewhere (maybe Force India) if I rated his ability and keep JB for one more season before bringing KM back.
That's a very good call. I'm sure plenty of teams in the lower half of the grid would want a loan driver with McLaren covering the costs.I'm not convinced by Magnussen right now - occasionally fast but struggles to put that together on race day to collect points and doesn't seem a clever driver. Maybe that is because Jenson understands the issues with the McLaren and drives the car to maximise points where as Kevin, in his debut year, has a mindset to just drive fast to prove he's fast?
I would think the McLaren dream team for 2015 would be Vettel #1 and Jenson #2 with Kevin to come back from loan in 2016 if he turns out to be as good as some thought he was. To win the WCC you need two drivers scoring and I'm not convinced Kevin can do that right now.
Vettel is young enough to spend time for McLaren to rebuild. Alonso isn't in my opinion and the only way he's going to get another WDC is with a current winning team. ie. Mercedes, Red Bull or a long shot maybe Williams.
HTP99 said:
Hasn't Jenson said that he has no interest in any other form of Motor Racing; it's either F1 or nothing?
I'm sure Di Resta said the same when the trap door was opening for him.The last time they gave JB a decent car (Brazil 2012) he won. They currently have a crap car with a great engine, next year they are likely to have a crap car with a new engine which will be playing catch up. Unless they build a car with a 'secret' blown defuser I can't see the pont having Vettel (this year we have seen the emperor has no clothes IMHO), and Alonso won't want to go to a team with a car most likley worse than his Ferrari, a team run by Ron. Keeping JB looks a no-brainer to me, why would any top driver go to McLaren unless it was for an end of career mega pay day? Kimi!). I don't see how Magnussen is a better race driver than Perez, and I don't see him as a future WDC; he may be highly rated but so was his dad. McLaren need to stop chopping and changing drivers, worrying about signing big names, and build a decent car. And sack Sam Michael...
Edited by MG511 on Friday 29th August 15:25
Button is an excellent driver but with a very narrow operating window - if the car is good he is virtually untouchable. If the car is mediocre he is nothing more than a safe pair of hands, I mean you rarely see a drive from Jenson and think "wow, how did he achieve that with that car".
Having said that I don't think many other drivers on the grid bar Alonso, Hamilton and possibly Vettel & Raikkonen would be doing a better job in that car. The newer generation Bottas and Ricciardo are clearly fast but as yet not completely proven under pressure.... it is one thing to beat a ageing or struggling team mate but another to step up and deliver when the WC is on the line.
I guess my point is I don't feel Button is doing a bad job and he has shown total loyalty to the team. You would have to hire Alonso or Hamilton to justify sacking him really. I can't see why Bottas or Vettel would want to move to McLaren and as much as I love Kimi he appears to be on a downward curve at the moment and is actually older than Jenson.
Having said that I don't think many other drivers on the grid bar Alonso, Hamilton and possibly Vettel & Raikkonen would be doing a better job in that car. The newer generation Bottas and Ricciardo are clearly fast but as yet not completely proven under pressure.... it is one thing to beat a ageing or struggling team mate but another to step up and deliver when the WC is on the line.
I guess my point is I don't feel Button is doing a bad job and he has shown total loyalty to the team. You would have to hire Alonso or Hamilton to justify sacking him really. I can't see why Bottas or Vettel would want to move to McLaren and as much as I love Kimi he appears to be on a downward curve at the moment and is actually older than Jenson.
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