Ferrari wants F1 engine freeze lifted to improve competition
Discussion
Scuffers said:
Renault and ferrari did a s
t job, they have to live with that.
But that was the point of my original post; yes, they do have to live with that because those are the regulations this year - pretty much no in-season development or evolution allowed. In previous years we'd have seen a race-by-race Continuous Improvement programme that would see the season evolve in a more organic way. t job, they have to live with that.People keep getting fixated on the fact it's Ferrari who said this. Put that aside for a moment, and all the historical baggage that comes with it, and ask yourself the question which is better: one shot at getting it right, and then live with it for the rest of the season, or have latitude to evolve your package during the season?
Edited by JonRB on Wednesday 3rd September 09:44
stevesingo said:
With the power unit, the choice is limited to what they choose (can afford) based on the date provided by the manufacturer. If the manufacturer underperforms on this data, which is an issue they need to take up with the manufacturer. If they don't resolve it, then market forces will come in to play.
Market forces would surely mean that the best engine supplier becomes dominant and the others fold, so a single engine supplier series. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing because the the engines will become ever more similar in time to maximise the power available within the requirements of the regulations. Ultimately, the only difference between engines will be the name on the badge, the only question is how long it takes to get there.RYH64E said:
Market forces would surely mean that the best engine supplier becomes dominant and the others fold, so a single engine supplier series. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing because the the engines will become ever more similar in time to maximise the power available within the requirements of the regulations. Ultimately, the only difference between engines will be the name on the badge, the only question is how long it takes to get there.
Well, we already have regulation ECUs...But that does beg the question as to how much of a Formula series F1 should be. Do we really want a regulation chassis and a regulation engine, like other formulae do? I don't believe so, personally.
I'd like to see *more* latitude for designers to be creative. Then maybe the likes of Adrian Newey, Gordon Murray, etc. wouldn't get bored and look for other things to interest them.
stevesingo said:
IforB said:
For this first year, my opinion is that the FIA shoould have allowed unlimited development and had a freeze at the beginning of next season.
The limited testing allowed was always going to throw up anomalies, which could be developed away. F1 is about competition and development. If a team are behind they have to work harder to catch up and then pass, artificially limiting this is to my eyes against the ethos of the sport. However, since that appears to be irrelevant, then no-one cares about how they win, just that they win.
That wouldn't work and would be arguably worse than the situation now. All would happen is the manufacturer with the largest budget would be further ahead by the freeze point, locking in a larger advantage. The other manufacturers will have spent a load more cash for a larger disadvantage. With the larger disadvantage locked in, their power units become less attractive and thus they will have less customers and cease to exist because it is not economically viable. Then we have less engine manufacturers and less competition. Counterproductive to the aims of the sport to get more manufacturers involved.The limited testing allowed was always going to throw up anomalies, which could be developed away. F1 is about competition and development. If a team are behind they have to work harder to catch up and then pass, artificially limiting this is to my eyes against the ethos of the sport. However, since that appears to be irrelevant, then no-one cares about how they win, just that they win.
What we have now is the best of a set of options. You can bet your bottom doller that Renault and Ferrari are putting more resource in to engine development than last year right now. All of the areas which can be changed before next season will be changed. Merc will also be developing their engine for next year, but the law of deminishing returns would suggest that they have less to gain.
WRT the comparison of chassis/aero development vs power unit development. With chassis/areo, the team has full control of the decisions on development direction and resource allocation. With the power unit, the choice is limited to what they choose (can afford) based on the date provided by the manufacturer. If the manufacturer underperforms on this data, which is an issue they need to take up with the manufacturer. If they don't resolve it, then market forces will come in to play. If the manufacturer delivers on the promises and subsequently the performance deficit of the team is due to incorrect selection of power unit, then the team has to carry the can. Also, the non-works customer teams will know that the packaging will not be optimised for their usage. This will have a less significant effect the longer the teams are in partnership with the manufacturer as the design philosophy will have to merge in order to get best usage from the power unit.
The rules are the rules. That is what they all signed up to. If Ferrari or Renault had the advantage this year, they would not be pushing for an unfreeze. All we have is sour grapes at the moment. Put up or shut up.
Next year will be closer.
Opening up this season would have benefitted all engine manufacturers but especially those that were struggling. Just saying that the biggest budget would have guaranteed that Merc would have been further ahead isn't necessarily true. The lack of actual testing has just meant that problems found can't be dealt with as efficiently.
If you are behind, then you have no opportunity to catch up, whereas with open development, other manufacturers have a chance to catch up and they can test the developments they think will work in the real world rather than in simulations which will always be less than ideal.
JonRB said:
I'd like to see *more* latitude for designers to be creative. Then maybe the likes of Adrian Newey, Gordon Murray, etc. wouldn't get bored and look for other things to interest them.
I've been catching up on podcasts recently and listened to the Gordon Murray interview for Motorsports Magazine. Really enjoyable interview for those interested and the poor sound disappears after 10-15 mins.http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/audio-podcast...
He basically said the reason he left was because the opportunity to be creative was getting narrower and narrower. Where is the scope for development when you are building to a design spec that is constantly narrowing?
The F1 power trains are not frozen though - it's just some components are and the intention is to divert development away from the internal combustion engine. Again interesting to hear Murray's view on this which was surprising given he's just an old hippy at heart! The green agenda is wrong for F1 and anyway what could be more green than extracting 100's of HP from a small combustion engine. Didn't expect that from him.
But yes I agree - the rules are currently too constrained - in all areas.
Megaflow said:
ash73 said:
Instead of lifting the freeze get rid of it completely, and while they are at it ditch parc fermé after quali, it's pointless.
No it isn't.The engine freeze is to stop the teams spending a medium sized country's GDP on engine development, we'll leave aside the argument of whether they should have changed engine regulations at all for this conversation.
I could have put that better, the freeze is to stop the engine manufacturers, not teams, spending a huge, unsustainable, sum on development.
In an ideal world the engine regulations would list a bunch of fuels, petrol, diesel, gas, hydrogen, electricity, etc and it would list the maximum amount of energy you have have from each fuel source. From there you can do what you want.
The simple reason we haven't got that is nobody can afford it.
In an ideal world the engine regulations would list a bunch of fuels, petrol, diesel, gas, hydrogen, electricity, etc and it would list the maximum amount of energy you have have from each fuel source. From there you can do what you want.
The simple reason we haven't got that is nobody can afford it.
Megaflow said:
I could have put that better, the freeze is to stop the engine manufacturers, not teams, spending a huge, unsustainable, sum on development.
In an ideal world the engine regulations would list a bunch of fuels, petrol, diesel, gas, hydrogen, electricity, etc and it would list the maximum amount of energy you have have from each fuel source. From there you can do what you want.
The simple reason we haven't got that is nobody can afford it.
Would it not be preferable to just have a rule that says power output of the best engine may not be more than 10% more than the worst engine? Then Mercedes would have no reason to overspend and engine tech would improve more evenly across manufacturers and pull budgets closer towards the smallest one.In an ideal world the engine regulations would list a bunch of fuels, petrol, diesel, gas, hydrogen, electricity, etc and it would list the maximum amount of energy you have have from each fuel source. From there you can do what you want.
The simple reason we haven't got that is nobody can afford it.
ash73 said:
F1 only needs three rules, imo 
1. Cars must only use X kg of fuel per race
2. Total aero downforce must not exceed X kg at Y mph
3. Don't drive like a dick
Number 2 is the hard one to even begin to quantify/police on a race by race basis.1. Cars must only use X kg of fuel per race
2. Total aero downforce must not exceed X kg at Y mph
3. Don't drive like a dick
Number 3 is fine unless you are German.
Only joking about No.3, honest
Scuffers said:
And where is the challenge?
Some people's idea of racing seems very odd...
Where's the challenge if future engine development is frozen? And how does a development freeze affect Honda? Will they be able to copy the best features of the Mercedes engine, add a few ideas of their own and homologate an improved 2015 engine whilst everyone else is stuck with the 2014 version?Some people's idea of racing seems very odd...
RYH64E said:
Where's the challenge if future engine development is frozen? And how does a development freeze affect Honda? Will they be able to copy the best features of the Mercedes engine, add a few ideas of their own and homologate an improved 2015 engine whilst everyone else is stuck with the 2014 version?
The technical challenge is to put engine, chassis and aero all together so they all work together as well as they possibly can.Then you race the car in such a way that you try and make up for your weaknesses.
If you listen to the aforementioned Pay Symonds podcast thats exactly what he's striving to do at Williams and it has to be said, is doing a pretty good job of it.
The challenge for the driver is to understand the car, what you need from it and what the team can give you. Then, to drive the thing faster than the other guy.
To be honest I don't think this has changed in what ? 30 ? 40 ? 50 ? years.
robinessex said:
And of course, the engine suppliers aren't doing ANY developing of the engines at all at the moment, are they ? Ha Ha .............
Oh, they'll be working like crazy, for sure. But they can't try out any of their ideas outside of a computer. So next season they will get another one-shot go at applying all they have learned over the course of this year. It seems that Mercedes will do what they can to block any unfreezing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29604927
Gaz. said:
andyps said:
It seems that Mercedes will do what they can to block any unfreezing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29604927
Funny how the engine freeze suited Renault in 2006-2013.All that will happen is they all spend a few more millions and merc move ahead again.
I really hope the new Honda powertrain is up there.
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