Will the radio ban help Lewis?
Discussion
Here's my take on it, it's s
t. It's a st idea, like really st.
Ignoring the technical aspect F1 is a team sport, despite what the general public assume of driver + car and a load of people milling around until it's all done for the weekend. The comms between drive and engineer is two guys working together to achieve a result, it is no different to WRC with a driver and co-driver. There is simply too much data to process in very little time for it to be ALL on the driver.
Getting a little technical the systems in place on the cars have been designed to be supported by the team whilst the car is in motion. The amount of technical data the drivers are being briefed on now for this weekend is IMHO too much to learn and too much to be dealing with whilst pulling 4G. There is a huge safety aspect to this, there have been multiple events this year where issues have required the team to intervene and create a worksaround for the car to continue - take this away and the driver will run the car until it stops, is on fire or fails catastophically. In the V10 and early V8 era this would have been possible and would genuinely have spiced things up a bit, with development in the last couple of years with ERS and now the very integrated PU packages that are in the backs of these cars it will only lead to more failures, more problems and the odd big accident, most likely due to harvesting issues from a failed or miss set KERS combined with BBW.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes for this rule to be scrapped....
t. It's a st idea, like really st. Ignoring the technical aspect F1 is a team sport, despite what the general public assume of driver + car and a load of people milling around until it's all done for the weekend. The comms between drive and engineer is two guys working together to achieve a result, it is no different to WRC with a driver and co-driver. There is simply too much data to process in very little time for it to be ALL on the driver.
Getting a little technical the systems in place on the cars have been designed to be supported by the team whilst the car is in motion. The amount of technical data the drivers are being briefed on now for this weekend is IMHO too much to learn and too much to be dealing with whilst pulling 4G. There is a huge safety aspect to this, there have been multiple events this year where issues have required the team to intervene and create a worksaround for the car to continue - take this away and the driver will run the car until it stops, is on fire or fails catastophically. In the V10 and early V8 era this would have been possible and would genuinely have spiced things up a bit, with development in the last couple of years with ERS and now the very integrated PU packages that are in the backs of these cars it will only lead to more failures, more problems and the odd big accident, most likely due to harvesting issues from a failed or miss set KERS combined with BBW.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes for this rule to be scrapped....
The rule will not be scrapped, its been around for a long time.
The only extra thing it'll force the drivers to do is remember how to operate the steering wheel. Longer term it will lead to simplified steering wheels for the drivers to use - this has already been happening, when Lewis went to Merc he instantly binned something like 10 buttons.
I don't think there is any safety issue whatsoever, any message related to safety is permitted.
The only extra thing it'll force the drivers to do is remember how to operate the steering wheel. Longer term it will lead to simplified steering wheels for the drivers to use - this has already been happening, when Lewis went to Merc he instantly binned something like 10 buttons.
I don't think there is any safety issue whatsoever, any message related to safety is permitted.
I can see the majority of the steering wheel area becoming a large screen with buttons down either side like ATMs have, in order to convey more information to the driver. Or maybe even speech synthesis into the earphone not unlike how some Fighter Jets have. In many ways the mental workload between a F1 driver and a Fighter Pilot are similar so it wouldn't be unreasonable for F1 to investigate that. I would imagine it was not deemed necessary up until now due to the fact that it is easier for the Race Engineer and his team to do all that and convey the information to the driver by radio - something that Fighter Pilots don't have.
Crafty_ said:
The rule will not be scrapped, its been around for a long time.
The only extra thing it'll force the drivers to do is remember how to operate the steering wheel. Longer term it will lead to simplified steering wheels for the drivers to use - this has already been happening, when Lewis went to Merc he instantly binned something like 10 buttons.
I don't think there is any safety issue whatsoever, any message related to safety is permitted.
No it's not, or this interpretation of it hasn't been. How do you define what is safety related? Do you request max harvesting because the rear brake temps are going high.... let them continue to rise and there will be a rear brake failure but is that then performance related because you've made a significant change to what energy is available where and what the laptime is?The only extra thing it'll force the drivers to do is remember how to operate the steering wheel. Longer term it will lead to simplified steering wheels for the drivers to use - this has already been happening, when Lewis went to Merc he instantly binned something like 10 buttons.
I don't think there is any safety issue whatsoever, any message related to safety is permitted.
With regards buttons on steering wheels you aren't quite right. Secondary functions which were dedicated to modeswap + ANother or independant buttons were consolodated to perform their fuction as a combination of mode fuction rotary + XYZ button - specifcally because it was possible to communicate to the driver what combination was required to achieve the desired result and because some drivers found two button presses at once difficult.
Most wheels now have several "soft" buttons the functionality of which is determined by what position the mode rotary/rotaries are in. At least one team has a virtual steering wheel running in software in the pit that will automatically provide the required rotary position and button presses to achieve what is required based on the issue reported.
Edited by poppopbangbang on Wednesday 17th September 22:16
ash73 said:
Google glasses embedded in the visor is the way to go 
HUD has been tried a few times in the past, BMW and Ferrari got furthest down the road but there was always issues with them to do with reliability, visibility and how distracting they could be - with a wheel display it is the drivers decision when to look at it and process any information on it. To be honest these days the wheel display is a secondary used mainly for information display at certain points where there is opportunity to glance at it, when making a change for confirmation or for information to be relayed to the pit. Drivers change on the lights/beeps, gear positon is a known based on number of right hand/left hand movements etc. etc. poppopbangbang said:
Here's my take on it, it's st. It's a st idea, like really st.
Ignoring the technical aspect F1 is a team sport, despite what the general public assume of driver + car and a load of people milling around until it's all done for the weekend. The comms between drive and engineer is two guys working together to achieve a result, it is no different to WRC with a driver and co-driver. There is simply too much data to process in very little time for it to be ALL on the driver.
Getting a little technical the systems in place on the cars have been designed to be supported by the team whilst the car is in motion. The amount of technical data the drivers are being briefed on now for this weekend is IMHO too much to learn and too much to be dealing with whilst pulling 4G. There is a huge safety aspect to this, there have been multiple events this year where issues have required the team to intervene and create a worksaround for the car to continue - take this away and the driver will run the car until it stops, is on fire or fails catastophically. In the V10 and early V8 era this would have been possible and would genuinely have spiced things up a bit, with development in the last couple of years with ERS and now the very integrated PU packages that are in the backs of these cars it will only lead to more failures, more problems and the odd big accident, most likely due to harvesting issues from a failed or miss set KERS combined with BBW.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes for this rule to be scrapped....
Couldn't agree less. We want the best driver in the best car to win. Its that simple. If the systems are not safe to run a few hundred miles without interference, and if the turbo vehicle doesn't have enough fuel to finish the race then they are not fit for purpose and don't deserve to win. t. It's a st idea, like really st. Ignoring the technical aspect F1 is a team sport, despite what the general public assume of driver + car and a load of people milling around until it's all done for the weekend. The comms between drive and engineer is two guys working together to achieve a result, it is no different to WRC with a driver and co-driver. There is simply too much data to process in very little time for it to be ALL on the driver.
Getting a little technical the systems in place on the cars have been designed to be supported by the team whilst the car is in motion. The amount of technical data the drivers are being briefed on now for this weekend is IMHO too much to learn and too much to be dealing with whilst pulling 4G. There is a huge safety aspect to this, there have been multiple events this year where issues have required the team to intervene and create a worksaround for the car to continue - take this away and the driver will run the car until it stops, is on fire or fails catastophically. In the V10 and early V8 era this would have been possible and would genuinely have spiced things up a bit, with development in the last couple of years with ERS and now the very integrated PU packages that are in the backs of these cars it will only lead to more failures, more problems and the odd big accident, most likely due to harvesting issues from a failed or miss set KERS combined with BBW.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes for this rule to be scrapped....
I guess teams will just have to make information on fuel, tyres, brakes, clutch etc available to the driver onboard and the drivers will have to monitor that and drive accordingly.
Personally, I'm not a fan of banning radio relating to car performance. Radio related to driver performance (eg "brake later at turn x") is different however.
Either way, whatever your view, it will make for more interest in the race! Always look forward to Singapore, one for the bucket list.
Personally, I'm not a fan of banning radio relating to car performance. Radio related to driver performance (eg "brake later at turn x") is different however.
Either way, whatever your view, it will make for more interest in the race! Always look forward to Singapore, one for the bucket list.
eps said:
dele said:
Who actually asked for this ban?
Typical artificial entertainment being invented half way through a season yet again, what a joke of a sport this has become
The Formula 1 Strategy Group/ CommitteeTypical artificial entertainment being invented half way through a season yet again, what a joke of a sport this has become
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/09/leave-them-a...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29254082
Fernando Alonso:
"No big difference for me," the double world champion said. "We never used the radio for performance anyway. At the end of the day, the driver still drives the car. The rule is just to put the drivers in a more alone situation."
Sebastian Vettel:
"..but in terms of managing certain components on the car it can be quite difficult for us," said the German.
"It could be a problem managing the state of (battery) charge in the race.
"That's why we have so many people in the garage. They're not here to have a nice time and have a couple of beers. They're here to do a job."
Agent Orange said:
Fernando Alonso:
"No big difference for me," the double world champion said. "We never used the radio for performance anyway. At the end of the day, the driver still drives the car. The rule is just to put the drivers in a more alone situation."
Well, maybe they should have been. "No big difference for me," the double world champion said. "We never used the radio for performance anyway. At the end of the day, the driver still drives the car. The rule is just to put the drivers in a more alone situation."
Agent Orange said:
eps said:
dele said:
Who actually asked for this ban?
Typical artificial entertainment being invented half way through a season yet again, what a joke of a sport this has become
The Formula 1 Strategy Group/ CommitteeTypical artificial entertainment being invented half way through a season yet again, what a joke of a sport this has become
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/09/leave-them-a...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29254082
Fernando Alonso:
"No big difference for me," the double world champion said. "We never used the radio for performance anyway. At the end of the day, the driver still drives the car. The rule is just to put the drivers in a more alone situation."
Sebastian Vettel:
"..but in terms of managing certain components on the car it can be quite difficult for us," said the German.
"It could be a problem managing the state of (battery) charge in the race.
"That's why we have so many people in the garage. They're not here to have a nice time and have a couple of beers. They're here to do a job."
"And Ferrari's Andrea Stella told Fernando Alonso, regarded as perhaps the very best F1 driver, to "take another line in turn 10" of the fabled Italian circuit last weekend."
Personally I think the radio should be free to use for everything apart from being told how to drive the car.
By that I mean let the team tell them about pit stops, strategy, settings, tyre performance, breaks, bias all that good stuff.
Just don't allow them to tell them:
- when to brake
- when to get on the throttle
- minimise wheelspin in corner x
- what line to take into a corner
- where there team mate is faster doing any of the above
By that I mean let the team tell them about pit stops, strategy, settings, tyre performance, breaks, bias all that good stuff.
Just don't allow them to tell them:
- when to brake
- when to get on the throttle
- minimise wheelspin in corner x
- what line to take into a corner
- where there team mate is faster doing any of the above
JonRB said:
If something breaks, the driver usually knows pretty quickly. 
Doesn't look like Massa would...Honestly you couldn't make it up that the driver most opposed to the ban on being coached around the circuit would be Massa. Where's MGJohn?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115920
"But you have so many things that we do in the car, that if you don't do maybe you put too much temperature in the rear brakes because the temperature gets too high, and then you just have a fire in the car. Maybe you could have a big accident."
poppopbangbang said:
No it's not, or this interpretation of it hasn't been. How do you define what is safety related? Do you request max harvesting because the rear brake temps are going high.... let them continue to rise and there will be a rear brake failure but is that then performance related because you've made a significant change to what energy is available where and what the laptime is?
With regards buttons on steering wheels you aren't quite right. Secondary functions which were dedicated to modeswap + ANother or independant buttons were consolodated to perform their fuction as a combination of mode fuction rotary + XYZ button - specifcally because it was possible to communicate to the driver what combination was required to achieve the desired result and because some drivers found two button presses at once difficult.
Most wheels now have several "soft" buttons the functionality of which is determined by what position the mode rotary/rotaries are in. At least one team has a virtual steering wheel running in software in the pit that will automatically provide the required rotary position and button presses to achieve what is required based on the issue reported.
Warning of imminent failure of the brakes is allowed IIRC. To be honest unless there is a fault the brakes won't really overheat. All the messages you've got used to hearing are about maximising performance, not safety.With regards buttons on steering wheels you aren't quite right. Secondary functions which were dedicated to modeswap + ANother or independant buttons were consolodated to perform their fuction as a combination of mode fuction rotary + XYZ button - specifcally because it was possible to communicate to the driver what combination was required to achieve the desired result and because some drivers found two button presses at once difficult.
Most wheels now have several "soft" buttons the functionality of which is determined by what position the mode rotary/rotaries are in. At least one team has a virtual steering wheel running in software in the pit that will automatically provide the required rotary position and button presses to achieve what is required based on the issue reported.
Edited by poppopbangbang on Wednesday 17th September 22:16
The point is that Lewis simplified his steering wheel by reducing the amount of switches/settings/operations, I suspect this will continue, possibly by having presets, engine engine map 6 and diff setting 4, rather than having them as two independent things.
Oh come on. The drivers still drive the car. The info between pits and driver helped them go faster and gave us some interesting insights into what's happening.
The enforcement is just because BE and co are worried how it 'looks' to some clueless fans who don't realise it's actually a team sport.
The enforcement is just because BE and co are worried how it 'looks' to some clueless fans who don't realise it's actually a team sport.
Crafty_ said:
Warning of imminent failure of the brakes is allowed IIRC. To be honest unless there is a fault the brakes won't really overheat. All the messages you've got used to hearing are about maximising performance, not safety.
The point is that Lewis simplified his steering wheel by reducing the amount of switches/settings/operations, I suspect this will continue, possibly by having presets, engine engine map 6 and diff setting 4, rather than having them as two independent things.
It's not imminent failure though if they are allowed to advise on action to avoid it. This is the issue, how do you quantify what is and isn't allowed. Do we wait until seconds before it goes bad and warn the driver to stop the car? No one has actually answered this question and as of now we're only hours from FP1. Brake thermal management is a massive thing with at least one guy dedicated to it at the moment plus another from the supplier. If the driver is too aggresive with bias or the harvesting mode is causing heavy rear duty beyond what the team expected in terms of brake duct opening then you need to tell your man.The point is that Lewis simplified his steering wheel by reducing the amount of switches/settings/operations, I suspect this will continue, possibly by having presets, engine engine map 6 and diff setting 4, rather than having them as two independent things.
The use of the mode rotary actually made accessing some menus/operations more complex but this didn't matter as the team could advise on how to access these operations.
With regards "All the messages you've got used to hearing are about maximising performance, not safety." what's broadcast and what the teams actually communicate are two very different things. I think less than 10% of the radio messages actually make it onto the broadcast.
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