Vettel to replace Alonso at Ferrari

Vettel to replace Alonso at Ferrari

Author
Discussion

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
MartG said:
FA tried to blackmail Ron into giving him clear no.1 status over Lewis by threatening to tell FIA that McLaren had made use of info leaked by Stepney. Ron called him by telling FIA himself, then Spankie fined McLaren $100M though there was no proof McLaren had used any of the data
Yes, great summary. But Ron's a businessman. Has been talking to Alonso since he took back control of the team. If the deal's inked, I wonder when they'll choose to announce it? As late as Abu Dhabi?

deadslow

7,962 posts

222 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
MartG said:
FA tried to blackmail Ron into giving him clear no.1 status over Lewis by threatening to tell FIA that McLaren had made use of info leaked by Stepney. Ron called him by telling FIA himself, then Spankie fined McLaren $100M though there was no proof McLaren had used any of the data
Yes, I do understand Fred & Ron had a spat and harsh words were spoken but McLaren's demise has been at the hands of poor management. By their own management decisions they threw away both titles in '07 and incurred a huge fine. Since then they have managed their way into the mid-field.

I appreciate FA is probably not the world's nicest person, but I don't think RD can escape his fair share of responsibility for the demise of his team.

Hating Alonso because McLaren is run like the Keystone Kops is daft.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
deadslow said:
Yes, I do understand Fred & Ron had a spat and harsh words were spoken but McLaren's demise has been at the hands of poor management. By their own management decisions they threw away both titles in '07 and incurred a huge fine. Since then they have managed their way into the mid-field.

I appreciate FA is probably not the world's nicest person, but I don't think RD can escape his fair share of responsibility for the demise of his team.

Hating Alonso because McLaren is run like the Keystone Kops is daft.
Come on. Do you really think that Ron would see it that way?

To make your point even close to plausible you have to keep replacing "blackmail" with "spat and harsh words".

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
MartG said:
FA tried to blackmail Ron into giving him clear no.1 status over Lewis by threatening to tell FIA that McLaren had made use of info leaked by Stepney. Ron called him by telling FIA himself, then Spankie fined McLaren $100M though there was no proof McLaren had used any of the data
There was some similarity between a couple of the units in the McLaren developments that could have come from Stepney. There was, however, no suggestion that this was done with the knowledge of Dennis nor was there any way they he could have known just by Coughlan coming up with the suggestions. Even Mosley had to admit that.

The ones who were complicit in the use of data for their own purposes were Coughlan of course - and it seems likely that he colluded with Stepney for his own reasons, and not for the good of McL (an how!) - and the twp drivers, FA and de la Rosa. The last two were offered immunity is they gave evidence against McL and, of course, Dennis.

Hamilton refused to go along that route, saying that he knew nothing. Given the penalty against Dennis for knowing nothing as well, it was a risk.

In their reply, drafted by lawyers many believe, but signed by Whitmarsh, in which they reject all but one or two points of the Mosley conclusions, it states:

". . . the investigators found no evidence of concealment or data cleansing as they reviewed the comprehensive materials supplied. To put this investigation into context, the investigating team interviewed 20 key engineers, accessed 22 personal computers belonging to key members of the organisation and retrieved by computer search 1.4 Tera Bytes of data stored on the central computer systems of McLaren Racing (this latter data is equivalent to approximately 75 million sheets of A4 typed information)."

A lawyer friend of mine said that the reply was a challenge to Mosley (the FIA) as it tore apart their case. She reckoned that regardless of the evidence, given the situation that Mosley was judge, jury and executioner in the case her advice would have been to accept the inevitable. However, Mosley was unable to take up the challenge and just swallowed it whole. Despite the reply being touted by Mosley - and many newspapers - as a groveling apology, he obviously knew that he'd had sand kicked in his face.

I reckon that for Mosley it was the end of his tenure, one that, to his eyes at least, made him important. From then on I think many in the business saw him as dangerous.

The usual suspects was a long list, although I have little doubt, well none, that Dennis would have done nothing. However, many other people might well have thought that their source of income was at risk with a man like him in charge. If he could fine McL $100m on almost zero evidence then everyone was in danger.

The Whitmarsh reply to Mosley is a classic of its kind, well worth a critical read. It's in lawyer-speak to an extent but one essential was to ensure that everyone who read it could see what Dennis reckoned. In any such discipline cases an acceptance of the result is an essential. The letter though starts by apologising and then goes on to say, in every paragraph and phrase, that they don't know what they are apologising for.

But to bring this back on topic, I don't think that Dennis sees FA as the main cause of his problems back then. Coughlan, his trusted senior engineer, must be there or thereabouts. After all, FA was just a driver, there to steer the thing. For Dennis the car's the star. Coughlan betrayed him more than FA did, or could. Even so, I'd put someone else, one who is best described as yesterday's man, in the frame. A footnote.

Mosley is Ozymandias: he comes on TV chat shows to say how good he was but, with apologies:

shelley said:
" . . . Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The few lonely cars hardly stretch any distance."

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
deadslow said:
Hating Alonso because McLaren is run like the Keystone Kops is daft.
That would be the Keystone Kops team that has won: 8 WCCs, 12 WDCs, and has 182 F1 victories would it?

Williams, in comparison, has 9 WCCs, 7WDCs, and 114 race victories. Their management must be even worse then by your reckoning. I mean, just 114 victories: what were they thinking of?


thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
fatboy69 said:
He tried to screw Ron during the Stepneygate 'espionage' bks.

A mere $100 million dollars of damage.
$100 million which they then wrote off as a business loss against their tax bill.

deadslow

7,962 posts

222 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
kiseca said:
deadslow said:
Yes, I do understand Fred & Ron had a spat and harsh words were spoken but McLaren's demise has been at the hands of poor management. By their own management decisions they threw away both titles in '07 and incurred a huge fine. Since then they have managed their way into the mid-field.

I appreciate FA is probably not the world's nicest person, but I don't think RD can escape his fair share of responsibility for the demise of his team.

Hating Alonso because McLaren is run like the Keystone Kops is daft.
Come on. Do you really think that Ron would see it that way?
Yes, given that half the management are being shown the door and FA is openly courted.


rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
$100 million which they then wrote off as a business loss against their tax bill.
At the time that's what was reported. Has anyone seen their accounts to see whether that actually happened?

Alonso's actions by blocking Hamilton damaged the team from an image point of view. That, more than conjecture that he forced Dennis' hand is more damning. But as I said, Ron never lets anything (and I mean anything) get in the way of achieving success in business life.

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
I thought that the 100m just got docked from prize money ? there was even some speculation that the amount was lowered in the quiet if I recall correctly.

DuckAvenger

324 posts

132 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
MartG said:
Hamilton refused to go along that route, saying that he knew nothing. Given the penalty against Dennis for knowing nothing as well, it was a risk.
However, Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton's points were not affected, and the two were free to contest the Drivers' Championship, because McLaren's drivers were offered immunity in exchange for cooperation

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

MartG

20,622 posts

203 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
DuckAvenger said:
Derek Smith said:
MartG said:
Hamilton refused to go along that route, saying that he knew nothing. Given the penalty against Dennis for knowing nothing as well, it was a risk.
However, Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton's points were not affected, and the two were free to contest the Drivers' Championship, because McLaren's drivers were offered immunity in exchange for cooperation
Sort your quotes out - I didn't write that, it was a reply to what I did write wink

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
quotequote all
DuckAvenger said:
Derek Smith said:
MartG said:
Hamilton refused to go along that route, saying that he knew nothing. Given the penalty against Dennis for knowing nothing as well, it was a risk.
However, Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton's points were not affected, and the two were free to contest the Drivers' Championship, because McLaren's drivers were offered immunity in exchange for cooperation
I'm not sure who said what to whom, but Hamilton did not avail himself of the offer from Mosley, saying that as he hadn't cheated he didn't need to. LH answered all questions - cooperated in fact.


Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
quotequote all
Crafty_ said:
I thought that the 100m just got docked from prize money ? there was even some speculation that the amount was lowered in the quiet if I recall correctly.
Were they not also stripped of their points in the Constructors' Championship?

Aside from the pure balance sheet effects of that size of fine, you also need to factor in the disruption in terms of opportunity cost in management having to focus on firefighting instead of "the day job", the effect on staff morale, and the reputational damage with potential sponsors.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
quotequote all
Europa1 said:
Crafty_ said:
I thought that the 100m just got docked from prize money ? there was even some speculation that the amount was lowered in the quiet if I recall correctly.
Were they not also stripped of their points in the Constructors' Championship?

Aside from the pure balance sheet effects of that size of fine, you also need to factor in the disruption in terms of opportunity cost in management having to focus on firefighting instead of "the day job", the effect on staff morale, and the reputational damage with potential sponsors.
They shouldn't have cheated then......

red_slr

17,122 posts

188 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
quotequote all
rubystone said:
Yes, great summary. But Ron's a businessman. Has been talking to Alonso since he took back control of the team. If the deal's inked, I wonder when they'll choose to announce it? As late as Abu Dhabi?
Most contracts now have their NDAs running till roughly 1st December. +/- a few days.
If there are any outgoing / incoming drivers we should find out who is going where around then - in theory.

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Europa1 said:
Crafty_ said:
I thought that the 100m just got docked from prize money ? there was even some speculation that the amount was lowered in the quiet if I recall correctly.
Were they not also stripped of their points in the Constructors' Championship?

Aside from the pure balance sheet effects of that size of fine, you also need to factor in the disruption in terms of opportunity cost in management having to focus on firefighting instead of "the day job", the effect on staff morale, and the reputational damage with potential sponsors.
They shouldn't have cheated then......
I was neither condemning nor condoning what happened, merely making the point that the damage to McLaren was more extensive than a simple cash amount.

Agent Orange

2,194 posts

245 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
If he {Mosley} could fine McL $100m on almost zero evidence then everyone was in danger.
Remember the fine for the offense was only $5M. The $95M was for "Ron being a tt". wink

I don't think anyone else in the paddock was in danger. This was, so far as I can tell, an opportunity to publicly dress down RD that was eagerly seized upon by Max and Bernie with probably a bit of Flavio too as Alonso had already sent Flav the info before RD had gone to the FIA.



Edited by Agent Orange on Monday 3rd November 14:17

suffolk009

5,344 posts

164 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
quotequote all
It's been a little quiet on this thread lately, so here's a little roundup of rumours from reliable sources on the internet. (in no particular order)

1)Falvio is doing a deal to buy Lotus with Santander money. Alonso will drive for them.

2)Santander insist that they are staying with Ferrari as sponsors, "whatever happens with Alonso". This has been seen as a clear sign that Alonso is leaving Ferrari, or as a clear sign that Alonso is staying put for another five years.

2)McLaren have signed a 6 year contract with Alonso.

3)Button is leaving F1 and going to WEC to drive for Porsche, in the same car as Webber. Once Button announces that, McLaren will announce Alonso for anything between 1 and 6 years. McLaren are waiting so as not to upset Button's negotiations.

4)Porsche is keen to have an "F1 star" car, their drivers will be, Button, Webber, and Alonso. Fred will take a sabbatical year from F1 before returning triumphant from LeMans to take Hamiltons seat.

5)A deal was worked out months ago between the FIA, Bernie, and the steering group teams - there will be 3 cars next year. Thus Alonso will drive for Ferrari alongside Vettel and Kimi.

6)Three car deal (as above), so Alonso will drive a Benz alongside Hamilton and Nico.

7)Benz are so enamoured with the idea of Alonso that they have agreed to pay off Nico and Hamilton will be number 2 to Alonso.

8)The fact that Lewis has split with XIX management mean that the 2015 contract with Merc has failed, and he must be "going home" with his dad managing him, and racing for Uncle Ron. This means that merc can hire Alonso.

9)Audi are coming to F1, and obviously they'll have Alonso leading the team, either next year or 2016.

10)Haas need Alonso to win in 2016. Brundle said this was "never going to happen".

Amazingly there don't appear to be any real rumours about him joining Williams, Sauber, or Force India.