McLaren's shareholders not happy
Discussion
I'm concerned abput the lack of sponsorship on McLaren's cars - not just from the point of view of McLaren, but whether it is symptomatic of a more significant issue for F1 as a whole: if McLaren, with (last couple of seasons notwithstanding) their outstanding pedigree cannot attract big name sponsors, what does it mean for the second and third tier teams?
Europa1 said:
I'm concerned abput the lack of sponsorship on McLaren's cars - not just from the point of view of McLaren, but whether it is symptomatic of a more significant issue for F1 as a whole: if McLaren, with (last couple of seasons notwithstanding) their outstanding pedigree cannot attract big name sponsors, what does it mean for the second and third tier teams?
I think that perhaps this is the scary truth.The main problem undoubtedly comes from the top, Bernie ,CVC et al, skimming 50% of the prize fund, so ordinary fans find attending a GP just too expensive and impressionable potential fans can't watch it on TV, FOC.
BE still believes that there are sufficient folk like Hass who have both the egos and funds to play. But as Tony Fernandez showed, if you are humiliated race after race then the passion soon dies. Joe Sayward foresees that perhaps 4 teams may fall from the grid next year hence the recent talk about 3rd cars.
One might reasonably expect that the FIA would seek to sort the sport out, but currently seems dead as the proverbial Dodo.
Meanwhile Red Bull and Mercedes are able to throw sufficient funds at their problems but merely serve their own selfish interest in the short term. This has also been Ron's failing.
Which leaves good teams like Williams and even McLaren looking vulnerable year on year. The rapid decline of Renault this year shows how quickly teams fail, once the benevolent dictator's cash dries-up.
Sorry, but blaming Bernie and CVC is a cop out.
Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, even Williams and Force India are all outperforming McLaren, some on lower budgets. If you bring budget in to the equation STR, Marussia are outperforming them too.
If you gave McLaren double the money currently receive they would spend it all and still under perform, lets not kid ourselves that they are strapped of cash.
The problem we have is that between the teams its dog eat dog - look how long FOTA lasted for example, none of them are interested in "the greater good" or the teams as a collective, they only look out for themselves. Who have resisted spending limits ? who circumvented the RRA, ending up making it pointless ? It wasn't Bernie.
So many preach that Bernie is bad/evil/ruined the sport - ok, well give me a more credible alternative ? clearly, the teams are unable to handle the commercial side of the sport because they are too interested in their own interests.
Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, even Williams and Force India are all outperforming McLaren, some on lower budgets. If you bring budget in to the equation STR, Marussia are outperforming them too.
If you gave McLaren double the money currently receive they would spend it all and still under perform, lets not kid ourselves that they are strapped of cash.
The problem we have is that between the teams its dog eat dog - look how long FOTA lasted for example, none of them are interested in "the greater good" or the teams as a collective, they only look out for themselves. Who have resisted spending limits ? who circumvented the RRA, ending up making it pointless ? It wasn't Bernie.
So many preach that Bernie is bad/evil/ruined the sport - ok, well give me a more credible alternative ? clearly, the teams are unable to handle the commercial side of the sport because they are too interested in their own interests.
Crafty_ said:
Sorry, but blaming Bernie and CVC is a cop out.
Is it? ... As mentioned by others they skim a lot (too much maybe?) off the revenues irrespective of economic conditions. IMHO they skim off far too much and this does effect the funding and therefore the ability of the teams to be competitive.
Bernie has a lot to answer for, and yes, BOHICA, watch some PH'ers come out of the woodwork and say "Bernie is God, Bernie has worked miracles for F1" etc., etc. and sure there was a time long long ago when he did good things. You can only dine-out on your past performance for so long. BE and CVC do have a lot to answer for.
Likes Fast Cars said:
Is it? ... As mentioned by others they skim a lot (too much maybe?) off the revenues irrespective of economic conditions.
IMHO they skim off far too much and this does effect the funding and therefore the ability of the teams to be competitive.
Bernie has a lot to answer for, and yes, BOHICA, watch some PH'ers come out of the woodwork and say "Bernie is God, Bernie has worked miracles for F1" etc., etc. and sure there was a time long long ago when he did good things. You can only dine-out on your past performance for so long. BE and CVC do have a lot to answer for.
IMHO they skim off far too much and this does effect the funding and therefore the ability of the teams to be competitive.
Bernie has a lot to answer for, and yes, BOHICA, watch some PH'ers come out of the woodwork and say "Bernie is God, Bernie has worked miracles for F1" etc., etc. and sure there was a time long long ago when he did good things. You can only dine-out on your past performance for so long. BE and CVC do have a lot to answer for.
- sigh*
I can remember McLaren laying a granite tiled floor in their garage for the BGP, it was left there. Yes a few years ago now, but the point remains - give them more money and they will spend it. The problem in the imbalance, not the amounts.
The real problem with Bernie is he outwitted them (and continues to do so), no-one likes to be outwitted.
I'm not saying he's some sort of miracle worker, sure he can take some blame for the state of things but simply removing him will change nothing.
But Crafty, things change and sometimes going through the change isn't easy, It's a different world to what it was 10, 20, 30 years ago, there is a limit to how much countries and promoters will pay to host a race, and there's only so much BS from BE the world can endure.
And succession planning.... what happens after he's dead n buried? Better to face the reality now than unexpectedly.
And succession planning.... what happens after he's dead n buried? Better to face the reality now than unexpectedly.
Likes Fast Cars said:
Crafty_ said:
Sorry, but blaming Bernie and CVC is a cop out.
Is it? ... As mentioned by others they skim a lot (too much maybe?) off the revenues irrespective of economic conditions. IMHO they skim off far too much and this does effect the funding and therefore the ability of the teams to be competitive.
Europa1 said:
I'm concerned abput the lack of sponsorship on McLaren's cars - not just from the point of view of McLaren, but whether it is symptomatic of a more significant issue for F1 as a whole: if McLaren, with (last couple of seasons notwithstanding) their outstanding pedigree cannot attract big name sponsors, what does it mean for the second and third tier teams?
I see this too but then I look at Williams, Marussia, Sauber and think their cars are quite bare too. However Williams at least are staying afloat so there must be some parts of the equation that are not as simple as "more sponsors = more money".Likes Fast Cars said:
But Crafty, things change and sometimes going through the change isn't easy, It's a different world to what it was 10, 20, 30 years ago, there is a limit to how much countries and promoters will pay to host a race, and there's only so much BS from BE the world can endure.
And succession planning.... what happens after he's dead n buried? Better to face the reality now than unexpectedly.
Thats fine and I agree succession planning would be a good thing, who knows maybe its already under way - I would suspect that CVC have some plans in place to protect their investment, after all the old boy could drop dead tomorrow.And succession planning.... what happens after he's dead n buried? Better to face the reality now than unexpectedly.
What I'm saying is that everyone points the finger at Bernie, but like it or not its not all his fault. *Everyone* needs to change, not just Bernie. For one thing lets not forget that the teams have signed up to the contracts they are currently on.
I think Franks outlook on this is interesting, listen to this at about 24 minutes onwards : http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/audio-podcast...
Given Ron's comments a while ago in the press about stop making excuses and complaining about things and just get on with racing I would assume he has a similar view.
Crafty_ said:
- sigh*
He evidently, if reports are to be believed, 'supported', i.e. took less money from, teams that were struggling to keep them in the game. Now we have pressure for multi car teams because that would not cost anyone any money.
There are no plans for the future. We need a feeder series, but as this would be a medium term project, no one cares. The FIA don't give a damn because they get no money from F1. Mosely and Ecclestone saw to that.
The real problem with Ecclestone is that he is looking for an exit.
CVC's interest is only until the float or the sale, whichever brings in more money. Ecclestone follows the money - we have enough evidence of that. Where is the person who is concerned for the future? I'd suggest the teams are the only ones left with an interest in what happens in the future.
The manufacturers come and go but Williams/Head and Dennis have been around for some weeks now. Have we got enough replacements for them? Williams have and there are one or two teams that might carry on, but Red Bull?
The irony is that we have had one of the most exciting seasons for some time so far. Short termism, such as multi-car teams, double points for the final race, and a free ice cream for all sponsors, is the real problem and we have one person to blame for that.
Derek,
All a bit over analysed to be honest, if Bernie wanted to go, he could just go and let CVC pick up the pieces, not his problem.
I don't think you can accuse Bernie of being in it for the short term, its what 40 years ??
Whilst Moseley was at the FIA when they sold Bernie the rights it was hardly a renegade deal was it ? it would still have to be approved.
Frankly yor post is the exact sort of thing I was talking about above - taking Bernie out of the equation fixes absolutely nothing.
All a bit over analysed to be honest, if Bernie wanted to go, he could just go and let CVC pick up the pieces, not his problem.
I don't think you can accuse Bernie of being in it for the short term, its what 40 years ??
Whilst Moseley was at the FIA when they sold Bernie the rights it was hardly a renegade deal was it ? it would still have to be approved.
Frankly yor post is the exact sort of thing I was talking about above - taking Bernie out of the equation fixes absolutely nothing.
tertius said:
Do you really need to look beyond McLaren's own performance? No Constructor's Championship since 1998, one WDC this century (and that 6 years ago) and not likely to change those stats for the foreseeable.
Exactly this. The main success they've had is being able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.I am beginning to wonder if Crafty is Bernie or indeed whether he is Christain Sylt whose latest article on F1 is http://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2014/09/30/new-f...
Having said that Crafty is of course right in part to blame the teams, they do spend every penny they can get and often a few more as well. They also are unable to work together even when it is plainly in their interest to do so.
As regards McLaren they might not have a title sponsor but isn't the team very well funded this year for various reasons to do with the increased payout from Bernie etc?
Of course the question I would ask is whether the reason the rate card should have fallen solely down to results or is it also because businesses are less willing to pay lots to sponsor F1 teams.
The reality is that there is no easy answer but I am sure that interest in F1 is dropping, including on this site and my suspicion is that its for a number of reasons including stories about Bernies trial, stories about his take from the sport, reduction of free to air TV, the lack of challenge to Red Bull over the last few seasons, the continual cash crisis for the bottom teams, the row over engine noise (which is a red herring I believe), ticket prices etc etc.
Having said that Crafty is of course right in part to blame the teams, they do spend every penny they can get and often a few more as well. They also are unable to work together even when it is plainly in their interest to do so.
As regards McLaren they might not have a title sponsor but isn't the team very well funded this year for various reasons to do with the increased payout from Bernie etc?
Of course the question I would ask is whether the reason the rate card should have fallen solely down to results or is it also because businesses are less willing to pay lots to sponsor F1 teams.
The reality is that there is no easy answer but I am sure that interest in F1 is dropping, including on this site and my suspicion is that its for a number of reasons including stories about Bernies trial, stories about his take from the sport, reduction of free to air TV, the lack of challenge to Red Bull over the last few seasons, the continual cash crisis for the bottom teams, the row over engine noise (which is a red herring I believe), ticket prices etc etc.
I'm not Bernie, I've got a twitter account ! 
Wasn't Sylt's name banded around as a possible replacement for Bernie at some point ?
Bernie is far from blameless but its a bit naive to think everything will be ok if we get rid of him.
Crossing threads but : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29422678
I could believe that Ron would step back into the shadows if he found someone he had confidence in to run the team, but Berger ? I mean, really ?
Wasn't Sylt's name banded around as a possible replacement for Bernie at some point ?
Bernie is far from blameless but its a bit naive to think everything will be ok if we get rid of him.
Crossing threads but : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29422678
Eddie said:
"Honda and McLaren want to hit the ground running. They want Alonso or Sebastian Vettel and it's possible both could wind up there. There are moves happening as we speak and possible scenarios that by the end of October there could be a change of management and of drivers in that team."
As someone said (edit: it was 2fast748) there was a bit in the daily fail about Bahrain investor group in McLaren being unhappy and were looking to oust Ron.. this is obviously not straightforwards, the bonkers bit was Gerhard Berger was being touted as a replacement !I could believe that Ron would step back into the shadows if he found someone he had confidence in to run the team, but Berger ? I mean, really ?
Crafty_ said:
Derek,
All a bit over analysed to be honest, if Bernie wanted to go, he could just go and let CVC pick up the pieces, not his problem.
I don't think you can accuse Bernie of being in it for the short term, its what 40 years ??
Whilst Moseley was at the FIA when they sold Bernie the rights it was hardly a renegade deal was it ? it would still have to be approved.
Frankly yor post is the exact sort of thing I was talking about above - taking Bernie out of the equation fixes absolutely nothing.
I'm talking about now. What his attitude was 40 years ago is immaterial.All a bit over analysed to be honest, if Bernie wanted to go, he could just go and let CVC pick up the pieces, not his problem.
I don't think you can accuse Bernie of being in it for the short term, its what 40 years ??
Whilst Moseley was at the FIA when they sold Bernie the rights it was hardly a renegade deal was it ? it would still have to be approved.
Frankly yor post is the exact sort of thing I was talking about above - taking Bernie out of the equation fixes absolutely nothing.
As for 'still have to be approved', have you read the EU court's comments on the way Mosely ran the FIA? I say ran, but Mosley was Ecclestone's little me. Take a look at the amount Ecclestone paid for the rights and how much they were valued at just a few months later. Are you suggesting they were put out to tender?
Bernie will gain money from the sale. He still owns a sizeable chunk of the rights. He won't leave his position of authority until is suits him, and it doesn't at the moment.
What someone new in control will hopefully do is to get some planning in hand. There is not even any succession planning.
Ecclestone will 'leave' one way or the other fairly soon. If he leaves things in a state where F1 suffers then it will be an indictment of him.
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