Welcome back Jenson?
Discussion
Williams have made some good moves, the Martini livery gives them a distinctive identity, they have invested in providing a good package with decent drivers without chasing some Messiah!
Williams will need to be a bit clever to close the gap on Mercedes further as to some degree the engine will be the limiting factor.
It seems to be quite difficult to build a good team around a driver. It is much better to aim for a good car that in the hands of a top tier driver can win consistently.
Few drivers seem to be able to bring a team on Schumacher was one of the exceptions as seen with Ferrari and probably to Mercedes although I'm sure it was in combination with the rest of the team.
Ferrari tried it again with "the best driver in F1" and failed with said driver giving up and running off!
Williams will need to be a bit clever to close the gap on Mercedes further as to some degree the engine will be the limiting factor.
It seems to be quite difficult to build a good team around a driver. It is much better to aim for a good car that in the hands of a top tier driver can win consistently.
Few drivers seem to be able to bring a team on Schumacher was one of the exceptions as seen with Ferrari and probably to Mercedes although I'm sure it was in combination with the rest of the team.
Ferrari tried it again with "the best driver in F1" and failed with said driver giving up and running off!
LDM said:
Few drivers seem to be able to bring a team on Schumacher was one of the exceptions as seen with Ferrari...
Ferrari tried it again with "the best driver in F1" and failed with said driver giving up and running off!
Was it really Schumacher though? Wasn't it just as much Brawn, Todt and Byrne along with a big dollop of help from Bridgestone.Ferrari tried it again with "the best driver in F1" and failed with said driver giving up and running off!
You could argue McLaren tried it in the past with Lewis and he ran off to Mercedes!
Agent Orange said:
Was it really Schumacher though? Wasn't it just as much Brawn, Todt and Byrne along with a big dollop of help from Bridgestone.
You could argue McLaren tried it in the past with Lewis and he ran off to Mercedes!
This was one of the big things that worked in Ferrari's favour, the Bridgestone arrangement gave them an edge. The era of tyre wars.You could argue McLaren tried it in the past with Lewis and he ran off to Mercedes!
As you say, it was the holy trinity who really made the difference (IMHO), and they were not Italian so they had a lot less political baggage to carry.
Agent Orange said:
Was it really Schumacher though? Wasn't it just as much Brawn, Todt and Byrne along with a big dollop of help from Bridgestone.
You could argue McLaren tried it in the past with Lewis and he ran off to Mercedes!
Hence why I said in combination with the rest of the team! You could argue McLaren tried it in the past with Lewis and he ran off to Mercedes!
There are good drivers out there who can out drive the cars and get the very best out of the car, the likes of Alonso and Lewis I put in this category.
Then you get the likes of Schumacher and Senna who seem to be able to give the sort feed back which helps the team develop the car further.
Whether either FA or LH manage to pass this sort of feedback to the team remains to be seen but does not make them less of a driver, just possibly not the people to build a team around (all the eggs in one basket)
Where does Button sit? I suspect with LH and FA but achieving it in a less flamboyant way. I suspect if he had been in the Mercedes this year or the red bulls previously he could have been a multi championship winner.
At times the Red Bull was streets ahead of the rest in previous seasons and I reckon even Max Chilton could have got second in the Mercedes this year such was its advantage but yes, Jenson was hampered by poor cars many times throughout his career and was often denied any meaningful attempts at a second WDC by poor reliability and poor strategy when at McLaren in previous years. Could any other driver have won in Canada in 2011? I'm not so sure.
toppstuff said:
Well my imaginary tens of millions of sponsorship would never go in the direction of McLaren.
They are poor value for money, with an unattractive image.
The team is run by a man who, to put it bluntly, has lost the plot.
This is NOT about Jenson. Its about the hubris of a team leader who really should not be there anymore.
Eric is little better.
Contrast the mood, the ethos, and the sheer performance of Mercedes with McLaren. Look at the strong, yet human and collaborative spirit inside Mercedes fostered by Toto, Paddy and Niki Lauda. Mercedes is a proper team that works together. They are all strong people, but they all have a role to play. Mclaren in contrast is the Ron Dennis show. And its not working.
Well put. I agree completely.They are poor value for money, with an unattractive image.
The team is run by a man who, to put it bluntly, has lost the plot.
This is NOT about Jenson. Its about the hubris of a team leader who really should not be there anymore.
Eric is little better.
Contrast the mood, the ethos, and the sheer performance of Mercedes with McLaren. Look at the strong, yet human and collaborative spirit inside Mercedes fostered by Toto, Paddy and Niki Lauda. Mercedes is a proper team that works together. They are all strong people, but they all have a role to play. Mclaren in contrast is the Ron Dennis show. And its not working.
MissChief said:
At times the Red Bull was streets ahead of the rest in previous seasons and I reckon even Max Chilton could have got second in the Mercedes this year such was its advantage but yes, Jenson was hampered by poor cars many times throughout his career and was often denied any meaningful attempts at a second WDC by poor reliability and poor strategy when at McLaren in previous years. Could any other driver have won in Canada in 2011? I'm not so sure.
Canada 2011 should (I emphasise that word, should) quieten any doubters or dissenters.toppstuff said:
Well my imaginary tens of millions of sponsorship would never go in the direction of McLaren.
They are poor value for money, with an unattractive image.
The team is run by a man who, to put it bluntly, has lost the plot.
This is NOT about Jenson. Its about the hubris of a team leader who really should not be there anymore.
Eric is little better.
Contrast the mood, the ethos, and the sheer performance of Mercedes with McLaren. Look at the strong, yet human and collaborative spirit inside Mercedes fostered by Toto, Paddy and Niki Lauda. Mercedes is a proper team that works together. They are all strong people, but they all have a role to play. Mclaren in contrast is the Ron Dennis show. And its not working.
Absolutely spot on. The ethos, coordination, teamwork and attitude displayed at Mercedes is a lesson to all F1 teams. Straight talking, no corporate scripted PR, just old fashioned honesty. Woolf and Lauda make a fabulous pairing.They are poor value for money, with an unattractive image.
The team is run by a man who, to put it bluntly, has lost the plot.
This is NOT about Jenson. Its about the hubris of a team leader who really should not be there anymore.
Eric is little better.
Contrast the mood, the ethos, and the sheer performance of Mercedes with McLaren. Look at the strong, yet human and collaborative spirit inside Mercedes fostered by Toto, Paddy and Niki Lauda. Mercedes is a proper team that works together. They are all strong people, but they all have a role to play. Mclaren in contrast is the Ron Dennis show. And its not working.
On that note, does anyone know if there's a full video out there of Canada 2011. I was on holiday in Spain at the time and just as the race was stopped we had to head out to dinner. Managed to catch some of the highlights package that evening but only some and I suspect it didn't really fully convey the build up of what was happening.
Would be nice to get to watch it again.
Would be nice to get to watch it again.
Swervin_Mervin said:
On that note, does anyone know if there's a full video out there of Canada 2011. I was on holiday in Spain at the time and just as the race was stopped we had to head out to dinner. Managed to catch some of the highlights package that evening but only some and I suspect it didn't really fully convey the build up of what was happening.
Would be nice to get to watch it again.
It's been replayed in full a few times recently on Sky F1 as part of their nightly 'Classic Races'Would be nice to get to watch it again.
DeltaTango said:
Swervin_Mervin said:
On that note, does anyone know if there's a full video out there of Canada 2011. I was on holiday in Spain at the time and just as the race was stopped we had to head out to dinner. Managed to catch some of the highlights package that evening but only some and I suspect it didn't really fully convey the build up of what was happening.
Would be nice to get to watch it again.
It's been replayed in full a few times recently on Sky F1 as part of their nightly 'Classic Races'Would be nice to get to watch it again.
I can offer you a 17 minute highlight video, but that's all right now...
Norfolkit said:
groomi said:
I can't believe that McLaren have played this out intentionally, because here they are putting the very first miles on the Honda engine and neither of this seasons drivers are in it to give valuable comparison against the Merc engine - and most likely nor is one of next season's drivers meaning they'll have less experience of the new engine than would have been possible.
Vandoorne is doing all of the testing, maybe one of next years drivers is getting experience.
TuxMan said:
I have to admit it's been easy to warm to Mercedes this year !!! Toto and nicki have been superb and letting both there drivers race has been brilliant !!!
While my £200 on shirts is not at lot of money to Rin Dennis if 1000 fans head somewhere else it's got to hurt !!!
Although it is always a bit easier to let your drivers race if they have no competition. I suspect they would not be so relaxed about it if Williams had been taking wins of them on a regular basis!While my £200 on shirts is not at lot of money to Rin Dennis if 1000 fans head somewhere else it's got to hurt !!!
Vocal Minority said:
Porsche are full next year. This isn't going to be like Audi in F1 is it, where the team say 'it categorically ain't happening' only for the fans to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with the gossip?
Didnt think they had named the three drivers for the "third " 919 Le Mans car,but I must have missed that.Gaz. said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
MissChief said:
At times the Red Bull was streets ahead of the rest in previous seasons and I reckon even Max Chilton could have got second in the Mercedes this year such was its advantage but yes, Jenson was hampered by poor cars many times throughout his career and was often denied any meaningful attempts at a second WDC by poor reliability and poor strategy when at McLaren in previous years. Could any other driver have won in Canada in 2011? I'm not so sure.
Canada 2011 should (I emphasise that word, should) quieten any doubters or dissenters.
Fordy Bob said:
Didnt think they had named the three drivers for the "third " 919 Le Mans car,but I must have missed that.
I wrote that before the third car was announced.However the full WEC line up has been announced (2 cars in the championship and 3 at Le Mans) - and I can't see JB going just for the one race (Le Mans or not). The general messages coming out of Porsche is that they will use drivers from their development program for that car.
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