Welcome back Jenson?
Discussion
NRS said:
PugwasHDJ80 said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
Ron could have, and probably should have, not said anything negative about Lewis. If we all believe the past is in the past then it's best to say nothing; when / if asked he could have simply said: "We have our drivers here and we're focussing on the years ahead.." etc., etc. and " I didn't handle the 2007 situation well", etc. To bring Lewis into it is a little piss weak and making feeble excuses if you ask me.
That article is much more balanced than the part people are focussing on Bascially it says "we all ufcked up and bear responsibility"
Ronspeak is always amusing, but his comments about 2007 are at least realistic
Gaz. said:
That isn't what people are getting at. Saying it started in Q3 Hungary is like tearing out page 128 of the Philosopher's Stone, seeing the bit where Harry trips up Malfoy and jumping up and down while screaming "I told you Harry started it".
Spoiler alert,I'm on page 125.......
NRS said:
Another interesting thing has been that a lot of the blame has been on Alonso grassing the team up - yet when Red Bull have been cheating they have been bearing all the blame.
If McLaren putting nitrogen in the tyres because they found out that Ferrari did that is cheating then I guess they deserved a $100m fine 
Alonso reported something on which that was the only evidence, and Max Mosley got his revenge for Ron Dennis having been a much more successful team principle than he had ever managed himself. But that is all old news.andyps said:
NRS said:
Another interesting thing has been that a lot of the blame has been on Alonso grassing the team up - yet when Red Bull have been cheating they have been bearing all the blame.
If McLaren putting nitrogen in the tyres because they found out that Ferrari did that is cheating then I guess they deserved a $100m fine Alonso reported something on which that was the only evidence, and Max Mosley got his revenge for Ron Dennis having been a much more successful team principle than he had ever managed himself. But that is all old news.Studio117 said:
I'm glad jb kept the seat but i can't see mac matching the mercs, williams or the red bulls next year. Merc spent a massive amount of money on the pu and have had 18 months+ worth of dev work. I just don't see what honda can offer over and above the merc engine.
I recall reading somewhere that Merc had at least 18 months dev on the 2014 car, which is what made it such a world beater.Presumably Ron didn't ring Honda a fortnight ago and say, "can you knock me up an engine please?"
What's to say Honda won't do the same as Merc?
thegreenhell said:
Redlake27 said:
At the same time, they were negotiating with Lego to build their new car as they felt it would probably be faster than anything they could build themselves.
Mind you, I now regret KMag not getting the drive - think of an all over 'lego block' livery and yellow smiley visor ripoffs
Oh, the more I think about it the better... how awesome to have something like this pic, so standard Honda McLaren livery, just accents to make it look like a lego car (no 'lego' logo needed at all) and yellow face lego man driving it round. Goddamn it Jenson!!!
Edited by tapi on Saturday 13th December 20:47
andyps said:
If McLaren putting nitrogen in the tyres because they found out that Ferrari did that is cheating then I guess they deserved a $100m fine Alonso reported something on which that was the only evidence, and Max Mosley got his revenge for Ron Dennis having been a much more successful team principle than he had ever managed himself. But that is all old news.
Nitrogen has been used in race tyres since god was invented. Alonso reported something on which that was the only evidence, and Max Mosley got his revenge for Ron Dennis having been a much more successful team principle than he had ever managed himself. But that is all old news.deadslow said:
Alonso may have reported this to Ron, but he reported it to no-one else. The level of (wilful, Daily Mail style) ignorance on this topic is depressing.
The level of ignorance was why I didn't point out that it was Ron who reported it to Max Mosley himself, after Alonso threatened to do so, quite possibly at the point Ron himself found out that two Spaniards in team had used the information received more than almost anyone else. I believed then, and still believe now, that Ron reported it of honour to the team and a sense of doing the right thing having found others had done wrong within McLaren.andyps said:
deadslow said:
Alonso may have reported this to Ron, but he reported it to no-one else. The level of (wilful, Daily Mail style) ignorance on this topic is depressing.
The level of ignorance was why I didn't point out that it was Ron who reported it to Max Mosley himself, after Alonso threatened to do so, quite possibly at the point Ron himself found out that two Spaniards in team had used the information received more than almost anyone else. I believed then, and still believe now, that Ron reported it of honour to the team and a sense of doing the right thing having found others had done wrong within McLaren.andyps said:
deadslow said:
Alonso may have reported this to Ron, but he reported it to no-one else. The level of (wilful, Daily Mail style) ignorance on this topic is depressing.
The level of ignorance was why I didn't point out that it was Ron who reported it to Max Mosley himself, after Alonso threatened to do so, quite possibly at the point Ron himself found out that two Spaniards in team had used the information received more than almost anyone else. I believed then, and still believe now, that Ron reported it of honour to the team and a sense of doing the right thing having found others had done wrong within McLaren.One was a senior McLaren engineer, which is a poor reflection of the culture within McLaren at the time.
I consider Ron Dennis mis-managed the situation (he now admits as much), and, in the process, threw away both World championships and invited a $100m fine. I doubt Wolf/Lauda would have demonstrated such hubris. Renault, that same year, had stolen just as much material from other teams, but kept their heads down. Maybe scores were being settled by Mosley/FIA versus RD, but that was Ron's problem, not Alonso's.
I do not know why RD acted the way he did. And I do not pretend to know.
When most of us were expecting the dawn of a golden era at McLaren, instead we watched them self-destruct.
The trend since seems to bear out the belief that their management is poor. They have had loads of money for years, talented staff, and brilliant drivers, but put it all together and what do you get - they only just managed to scrape past Force India - their management has been in meltdown.
I think RD's recent analysis of events, i.e. 'we all seemed to get it wrong and got sucked into a disaster', is about right, and refreshingly open and honest.
I hope that next year we, once again, have the opportunity to witness a resurgence at McLaren. Jenson and Fred are a class pairing.
As JB used overtake me in the mornings on his blasted fancy Carbon bike, here's a track to say that RD was a longwinded twit to keep us waiting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LFHFeJ0XaI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LFHFeJ0XaI
deadslow said:
andyps said:
deadslow said:
Alonso may have reported this to Ron, but he reported it to no-one else. The level of (wilful, Daily Mail style) ignorance on this topic is depressing.
The level of ignorance was why I didn't point out that it was Ron who reported it to Max Mosley himself, after Alonso threatened to do so, quite possibly at the point Ron himself found out that two Spaniards in team had used the information received more than almost anyone else. I believed then, and still believe now, that Ron reported it of honour to the team and a sense of doing the right thing having found others had done wrong within McLaren.One was a senior McLaren engineer, which is a poor reflection of the culture within McLaren at the time.
I consider Ron Dennis mis-managed the situation (he now admits as much), and, in the process, threw away both World championships and invited a $100m fine. I doubt Wolf/Lauda would have demonstrated such hubris. Renault, that same year, had stolen just as much material from other teams, but kept their heads down. Maybe scores were being settled by Mosley/FIA versus RD, but that was Ron's problem, not Alonso's.
I do not know why RD acted the way he did. And I do not pretend to know.
When most of us were expecting the dawn of a golden era at McLaren, instead we watched them self-destruct.
The trend since seems to bear out the belief that their management is poor. They have had loads of money for years, talented staff, and brilliant drivers, but put it all together and what do you get - they only just managed to scrape past Force India - their management has been in meltdown.
I think RD's recent analysis of events, i.e. 'we all seemed to get it wrong and got sucked into a disaster', is about right, and refreshingly open and honest.
I hope that next year we, once again, have the opportunity to witness a resurgence at McLaren. Jenson and Fred are a class pairing.
You mention "English" employees as being the cheats (at Macca and Fezza) yet it is evident from all that has been said and done that the 2 Spaniards were the main protagonists.
The slimy Spaniard is the one who did the dirty deal in moving teams, from Macca (via Renault with his mate Flav), to Fezza. Fact.
As stated: "...Ron reported it of honour to the team and a sense of doing the right thing having found others had done wrong within McLaren" in my view you've just confirmed and endorsed what was said, Ron acted with honour. Shame he wasn't as honourable in his public mutterings regarding the selection process of his 2015 driver dealings (sorry, I can't let that one go!).
Likes Fast Cars said:
deadslow said:
andyps said:
deadslow said:
Alonso may have reported this to Ron, but he reported it to no-one else. The level of (wilful, Daily Mail style) ignorance on this topic is depressing.
The level of ignorance was why I didn't point out that it was Ron who reported it to Max Mosley himself, after Alonso threatened to do so, quite possibly at the point Ron himself found out that two Spaniards in team had used the information received more than almost anyone else. I believed then, and still believe now, that Ron reported it of honour to the team and a sense of doing the right thing having found others had done wrong within McLaren.One was a senior McLaren engineer, which is a poor reflection of the culture within McLaren at the time.
I consider Ron Dennis mis-managed the situation (he now admits as much), and, in the process, threw away both World championships and invited a $100m fine. I doubt Wolf/Lauda would have demonstrated such hubris. Renault, that same year, had stolen just as much material from other teams, but kept their heads down. Maybe scores were being settled by Mosley/FIA versus RD, but that was Ron's problem, not Alonso's.
I do not know why RD acted the way he did. And I do not pretend to know.
When most of us were expecting the dawn of a golden era at McLaren, instead we watched them self-destruct.
The trend since seems to bear out the belief that their management is poor. They have had loads of money for years, talented staff, and brilliant drivers, but put it all together and what do you get - they only just managed to scrape past Force India - their management has been in meltdown.
I think RD's recent analysis of events, i.e. 'we all seemed to get it wrong and got sucked into a disaster', is about right, and refreshingly open and honest.
I hope that next year we, once again, have the opportunity to witness a resurgence at McLaren. Jenson and Fred are a class pairing.
You mention "English" employees as being the cheats (at Macca and Fezza) yet it is evident from all that has been said and done that the 2 Spaniards were the main protagonists.
The slimy Spaniard is the one who did the dirty deal in moving teams, from Macca (via Renault with his mate Flav), to Fezza. Fact.
As stated: "...Ron reported it of honour to the team and a sense of doing the right thing having found others had done wrong within McLaren" in my view you've just confirmed and endorsed what was said, Ron acted with honour. Shame he wasn't as honourable in his public mutterings regarding the selection process of his 2015 driver dealings (sorry, I can't let that one go!).
You've said "on the one hand, you state...." but no other hand to counter it...?
I love the notion that Ron acted out of honour. Nobidy in F1 ever, has disadvantaged themselves for honour have they??
Gaz. said:
Disastrous said:
What's happenrd to 'the other hand'?
You've said "on the one hand, you state...." but no other hand to counter it...?
I love the notion that Ron acted out of honour. Nobidy in F1 ever, has disadvantaged themselves for honour have they??
It wasn't honour, it was damage limitation and saving the company, even Mosely said he considered banning them from the sport but thought it was unfair for 500 people to lose their jobs off the back of the wrong doings of 4-5 people. It was certainly better to hear everything from Ron than to hear it from Alonso.You've said "on the one hand, you state...." but no other hand to counter it...?
I love the notion that Ron acted out of honour. Nobidy in F1 ever, has disadvantaged themselves for honour have they??
As for the judgement, after stepneygate broke and nothing was found on or within mclaren and they were for rational reasons "let off" rather than damage the sport by killing mclaren, ferrari decided their best hope at "winning" lay off-track and with spankys help achieved this. If mclaren had "won" montzerella would have dragged it through the courts until ferrari "won"; nothing would surprise me about the oddness of the last two races.
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