2015 - Three car teams?

[suffolk009]

So, the deadline for 2015 entries is looming (1st Nov), Caterham is in the news, Marussia is apparently getting the cold shoulder from Ferrari, Christian Horner is being Bullish about running three car teams, and of course Vettel and Alonso are amongst the drivers whose seats are unconfirmed for next year.

Is this all leading to there being three car teams next year?

[furtive]

I think that could lead to the end of F1. It will push the midfield teams further back, as the top teams will take all the points, and therefore all the money. Unless something else changes that will eventually leave you with Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari at their own F1 party

[rdjohn]

The big problem is that the change requires unanimous approval from all teams. That is not going to happen.

There are also costs associated with running third car, but by Bernie's version of fair play, there are no WDC points, or more importantly, no WCC points either.

So Vettel and Alonso are very unlikely to be remotely interested.

This whole sorry state in F1 has been brewing for a long time - the whole thing could implode on itself as the old model has become unaffordable for teams, circuits and TV companies.

Joe Saward has written an excellent piece here http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/knock-on...

[suffolk009]

^^^^ I saw the piece by Saward. I suspect that anything Bernie is cooking up at the moment will look very different to what is currently being talked about, or tentatively reported.

If there are going to be three car teams (and I suspect the teams already know if there are) then I suspect Vettel has signed for Merc, and not Ferrari as everyone seems to assume. I recognise that I'm out on my own with that idea.

[rubystone]

rdjohn said:

The big problem is that the change requires unanimous approval from all teams. That is not going to happen.

/

That's a shame - I thought that it didn't require unanimous support, which was why there'd been a lot of noise about it over the past few months.

I wonder though - if only Mercedes objected, might they be prepared to change their mind on the 3 car rule if their objection to lifting the engine freeze was upheld?

[suffolk009]

rubystone said:

I wonder though - if only Mercedes objected, might they be prepared to change their mind on the 3 car rule if their objection to lifting the engine freeze was upheld?

I suspect everything is negotiable.

[anonymous-user]

suffolk009 said:

^^^^ I saw the piece by Saward. I suspect that anything Bernie is cooking up at the moment will look very different to what is currently being talked about, or tentatively reported.

If there are going to be three car teams (and I suspect the teams already know if there are) then I suspect Vettel has signed for Merc, and not Ferrari as everyone seems to assume. I recognise that I'm out on my own with that idea.

For no points? If JS is correct, then who but a rookie would want to be in the third car?

[Derek Smith]

Saward says it all. But that won't stop me saying my bit.

The problems with F1 are all down to short-termism. The management - that's not the FIA of course - gives the impression of going after funds rather than planning for value. Mosley's attempts to push F1 into a one-make series harmed it considerably, and we are feeling the effects now. Sensible management from CVC could have avoided these problems. F1 is, it seems, seen as a cash cow and nothing more.

There is no French GP. That's stupid on many levels. Silverstone lost money on running the race. How stupid is that?

We are getting to the end of an exciting season. It could well be the end of F1 as the premier series.

There are vested interests in promoting sports car racing and the pressure is coming from Europe. Despite being an almost life-long F1 nerd, my feelings are mixed. I used to enjoy sports car/GT racing. The Redex Trophy/Guards Trophy/BOAC 500 races used to be packed at the circuits. And look at the success of Le Mans. Would Todt be that upset to see another series come to the fore? After all, the FIA gets no income directly from F1. How stupid is that?

F1 has run with 'grid light' in the past and has survived. The demand for 3-car teams is a demand that has little sense with it. But then, that goes for so much of F1 of late.

F1 will survive of course, whatever happens, but it might be nice for its sense of entitlement to be proved false, if only to push a sense of reality into those in charge.

I love F1, but it is not unconditional.

[Henry Fiddleton]

No WCC points, but eligible for WDC points?

Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg - all part of the same team.

Would be great to watch.

Other option is customer cars; Merc, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams all selling cars to Sauber, Maurussia and F.I.

[Munter]

Henry Fiddleton said:

Other option is customer cars; Merc, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams all selling cars to Sauber, Maurussia and F.I.

I think that is the more likely option.

You could have a rule saying only 1 team may run a single chassis and engine combination to avoid essentially 4 car teams. And the 2nd team chassis would definitely then be a compromise of changes for the different power plant, but probably still better than Caterham would put out.

[Puddenchucker]

rdjohn said:

The big problem is that the change requires unanimous approval from all teams. That is not going to happen.

I was under the impression, perhaps erroneously, that Bernie E is contracted to provide a minimum of 20 cars for each F1 race, and that the teams, through their individual contracts with Bernie, are obliged to provide those cars.
How they go about that, i.e. which teams would provide the extra cars, is probably open to interpretation and the lawyers...

[anonymous-user]

Henry Fiddleton said:

No WCC points, but eligible for WDC points?

Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg - all part of the same team.

Would be great to watch.

Other option is customer cars; Merc, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams all selling cars to Sauber, Maurussia and F.I.

Can't imagine them having WDC points if there are no WCC points for the third car. Which team would allow its third car to beat one of the others? If they were running a third, non scoring car, I reckon, unless it was in a good position strategically, they'd retire it early on each race and concentrate on the others.

What good would all that be? Blatant padding out of the grid with cars that aren't going to be competing.

The problem is, I guess, that if they're allowed to score points, all teams will need to run three cars or they'll have little chance of competing for championships.

Time will tell.

[aeropilot]

Munter said:

Henry Fiddleton said:

Other option is customer cars; Merc, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams all selling cars to Sauber, Maurussia and F.I.

I think that is the more likely option.

It's the sensible option too.
After all it was what happened back in the 'good' old days....been happening in MotoGP as well for a number of years.

[hdrflow]

Another one where three car teams are the way to go

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/09/23/some-com...

in particular

Joe Saward said:

The current 22-car field would be reduced to 14 but there would be only four non-scoring cars to replace them. That would make 18 cars, an insufficient number to satisfy the FIA contract.
...
There are times when going out of business is the most profitable route to take.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

[fcuk1_6]

My 2ps worth:
If Caterham and Marussia drop out they could maybe allow two teams on a rotation to run a third car each race for test and development purposes with they test/reserve drivers but without scoring WCC points.
Would maybe give some of the young drivers the chance to develop their skills and prove their worth in a progressive manner rather than throwing them in at the deep end and in turn would maybe mean some of the more experienced drivers wouldn't loose their seats.
Also think it could help teams with marketing, e.g. Williams running Susie Wolff and getting press for a woman in F1, local drivers getting a run such as Alexander Rossi driving 3rd car for someone in the US GP to get attention from home crowd with no American drivers in F1 currently.

[aeropilot]

Jackie Stewart's first WDC in '69 must have been the last time a WDC was won in a customer run 'works' car with the Tyrell run Matra.

I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?

[Smollet]

aeropilot said:

I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?

Struggling to think of one. Off the top of my head I think the last race won by a privateer was Jo Siffert in Rob Walkers Lotus 49 at Brands in 69.
Not sure if Stewart won in a March the following year though.

[Dr Murdoch]

Smollet said:

Struggling to think of one. Off the top of my head I think the last race won by a privateer was Jo Siffert in Rob Walkers Lotus 49 at Brands in 69.
Not sure if Stewart won in a March the following year though.

Olivier Panis (Prost) in Monaco?

[woof]

Seems inevitable that it's going to happen with Caterham & Marussia finished (can't see how they will come back from missing 2 or 3 races - massive financial penalties for not showing up).

I don't see anything wrong with a 3 car team. Might even give is better racing.
Alonso going to Merc ?
That would be really interesting

[Crafty_]

Each team is allowed to miss 3 races before penalties kick in.