2015 - Three car teams?
Discussion
woof said:
Crafty_ said:
Each team is allowed to miss 3 races before penalties kick in.
Ru sure about that ? GP2 if you don't field a 2 car team then there's a 50k fine (might me 150k I can't remember but there's definitely a fine)
https://twitter.com/joesaward/status/5257657357723...
https://twitter.com/joesaward/status/5257650693477...
V tricky at this stage of the season unless Bernie agrees something that ensures there's no gamesmanship..and I can't see a way in which he could possibly ensure that won't happen.
But for 2015? I think it's very likely. And I think Alonso might be thinking twice about signing that McLaren contract. Of course, he could've been very, very smart in insisting on a clause releasing him in the event teams field 3 cars...
But for 2015? I think it's very likely. And I think Alonso might be thinking twice about signing that McLaren contract. Of course, he could've been very, very smart in insisting on a clause releasing him in the event teams field 3 cars...
In Joe Saward's latest blog, he seems to be suggesting that if three-car teams happen then it won't be a case of any or all teams committing to running a third car for the full season, but rather that they will take turns to field a third car to make up the numbers in randomly chosen races, with no team running three in consecutive races. How and who decides which teams run the thrid car in which races is less clear.
Munter said:
Henry Fiddleton said:
Other option is customer cars; Merc, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams all selling cars to Sauber, Maurussia and F.I.
I think that is the more likely option.You could have a rule saying only 1 team may run a single chassis and engine combination to avoid essentially 4 car teams. And the 2nd team chassis would definitely then be a compromise of changes for the different power plant, but probably still better than Caterham would put out.
thegreenhell said:
In Joe Saward's latest blog, he seems to be suggesting that if three-car teams happen then it won't be a case of any or all teams committing to running a third car for the full season, but rather that they will take turns to field a third car to make up the numbers in randomly chosen races, with no team running three in consecutive races. How and who decides which teams run the thrid car in which races is less clear.
I think he also makes the point that nobody - outside those who are signed up to the agreement - know the actual terms.Therefore, either someone has blabbed to him, or like the rest of us he is having an educated guess. I suppose.
Smollet said:
aeropilot said:
I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?
Struggling to think of one. The ones I had in my mind was around 74/75 season, seemed to recall a few oddball wins. But, after half an hour trawling the stats, I guess I must have been thinking of the either the '75 races won by Carlos Pace and Vittorio Brambilla, but Pace won in a works BT44B and Brambillia won in a works March.
suffolk009 said:
I think he also makes the point that nobody - outside those who are signed up to the agreement - know the actual terms.
Therefore, either someone has blabbed to him, or like the rest of us he is having an educated guess. I suppose.
Absolutely there is guesswork involved, but he also writes "as I understand it" with regards the concept, as if he does have some inside knowledge.Therefore, either someone has blabbed to him, or like the rest of us he is having an educated guess. I suppose.
I can see some merit in the concept, as I think some teams at least could manage to run a third car two or three times in a season largely with existing resources, rather than having to gear up for a full season. It may also allow, for example, a third Ferrari at Monza, or an extra McHonda in Japan.
It could also be to the benefit of aspiring F1 drivers, as there would be more one-off drive possibilities throughout the season, without the need to find the finances to commit to a full season, and with possible one-off drives in a top team rather than a backmarker, so they can actually show what they can do.
Because I'm a sad git I've read both sporting and technical regs. Both make numerous references to 2 cars per team, so, I'm thinking that they are going to have to be re-issued if we see 3 car teams.
If this is the case I wonder if they can add things to help reduce costs (and what those things could be).
Any ideas?
If this is the case I wonder if they can add things to help reduce costs (and what those things could be).
Any ideas?
aeropilot said:
Jackie Stewart's first WDC in '69 must have been the last time a WDC was won in a customer run 'works' car with the Tyrell run Matra.
I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?
Technically, the Matra International team of 1969 (run by Ken Tyrell) was the works entry for that year. Matra had split their entry in 1968 - with Tyrell's Matra International team running Jackie Stewart in the DFV powered MS10 and Matra Sports (the de facto works team) running Jean-Pierre Beltoise (from Monaco onwards) in the Matra V12 powered MS11. I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?
For 1969, Matra put all their F1 eggs in Ken Tyrell's basket, providing Tyrell with cars and a team-mate for Stewart in the guise of Jean-Pierre Beltoise. Matra's new F1 cars for that year - the MS80 and MS 84 (four wheel drive) - were DFV powered and, unlike in 1968, there were no Matra V12 equivalents. There was no F1 entry that season from Matra Sports, who instead concentrated on the World Sportscar Championship.
Kaiser_Wull said:
aeropilot said:
Jackie Stewart's first WDC in '69 must have been the last time a WDC was won in a customer run 'works' car with the Tyrell run Matra.
I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?
Technically, the Matra International team of 1969 (run by Ken Tyrell) was the works entry for that year. Matra had split their entry in 1968 - with Tyrell's Matra International team running Jackie Stewart in the DFV powered MS10 and Matra Sports (the de facto works team) running Jean-Pierre Beltoise (from Monaco onwards) in the Matra V12 powered MS11. I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?
For 1969, Matra put all their F1 eggs in Ken Tyrell's basket, providing Tyrell with cars and a team-mate for Stewart in the guise of Jean-Pierre Beltoise. Matra's new F1 cars for that year - the MS80 and MS 84 (four wheel drive) - were DFV powered and, unlike in 1968, there were no Matra V12 equivalents. There was no F1 entry that season from Matra Sports, who instead concentrated on the World Sportscar Championship.
This from the internet, an interview with Bernie:
The solution [to 3 car teams] could be a rule written into teams’ commercial contracts with Ecclestone that forces big teams to supply third cars to F1’s most struggling outfits.
“So if, for example, Sauber disappeared, a team could do a deal with Sauber,” Ecclestone told Sylt.
“Ferrari could say ‘We will give you a car, all that goes with it, and we want you to put this sponsor on it. You have your own sponsors but we want you to include this one as well and we want you to take this driver’,” he explained.
“The team wouldn’t have to go under then would they? If Red Bull decided they would give a car to Caterham for example that could solve their problem.”
The solution [to 3 car teams] could be a rule written into teams’ commercial contracts with Ecclestone that forces big teams to supply third cars to F1’s most struggling outfits.
“So if, for example, Sauber disappeared, a team could do a deal with Sauber,” Ecclestone told Sylt.
“Ferrari could say ‘We will give you a car, all that goes with it, and we want you to put this sponsor on it. You have your own sponsors but we want you to include this one as well and we want you to take this driver’,” he explained.
“The team wouldn’t have to go under then would they? If Red Bull decided they would give a car to Caterham for example that could solve their problem.”
suffolk009 said:
This from the internet, an interview with Bernie:
The solution [to 3 car teams] could be a rule written into teams’ commercial contracts with Ecclestone that forces big teams to supply third cars to F1’s most struggling outfits.
“So if, for example, Sauber disappeared, a team could do a deal with Sauber,” Ecclestone told Sylt.
“Ferrari could say ‘We will give you a car, all that goes with it, and we want you to put this sponsor on it. You have your own sponsors but we want you to include this one as well and we want you to take this driver’,” he explained.
“The team wouldn’t have to go under then would they? If Red Bull decided they would give a car to Caterham for example that could solve their problem.”
Sylt is not the most critical of interviewers when it comes to Ecclestone.The solution [to 3 car teams] could be a rule written into teams’ commercial contracts with Ecclestone that forces big teams to supply third cars to F1’s most struggling outfits.
“So if, for example, Sauber disappeared, a team could do a deal with Sauber,” Ecclestone told Sylt.
“Ferrari could say ‘We will give you a car, all that goes with it, and we want you to put this sponsor on it. You have your own sponsors but we want you to include this one as well and we want you to take this driver’,” he explained.
“The team wouldn’t have to go under then would they? If Red Bull decided they would give a car to Caterham for example that could solve their problem.”
It appears that the long forecast problems with costs have finally appeared. The little teams are going. This will suit some of the bigger teams as any sponsorship will find a new home and with competition being less intense, prices can be increased.
If the teams had been able to form a group with sufficient authority then they might have been able to be a counterbalance to Ecclestone but, from reports, some teams' resolve was destroyed when extra money was promised to them.
But the grids have been down before. 20 cars, even 18 is no real problem as in a sense that's all we've had racing before.
If the money the teams receive was divided differently or there was financial encouragement for a team to join F1 then perhaps things could change, but until that day, what with Hell freezing over, the interest level it would generate might be too low.
If CVC want their product's value to stay high then they will have to do something dramatic. I'm not sure that painting a Ferrari a different colour would do that.
This thing of big teams providing small teams a car - can't see it.
Imagine you're Merc, you've got millions invested in the IP of your car, then you have to give it to (say) STR.
STR copy it and suddenly bang they are at the top of the grid, beating you. Are you going to let that happen ?
Not to mention that STR might have some friends over from Red Bull and the car might just happen to be there at the same time.
The only way to avoid this is if Merc build two cars - their own and a crappy one to "give away". This will just push up costs.
At the same time the crappy car runs around at the back, no TV time, sponsorship reduces, they can never get back to having their own car and being a team "proper".
I think this is another mad Bernie idea (see: watering tracks, medals) and he's testing the water. There is another solution he's aiming at, this is just noise.
Imagine you're Merc, you've got millions invested in the IP of your car, then you have to give it to (say) STR.
STR copy it and suddenly bang they are at the top of the grid, beating you. Are you going to let that happen ?
Not to mention that STR might have some friends over from Red Bull and the car might just happen to be there at the same time.
The only way to avoid this is if Merc build two cars - their own and a crappy one to "give away". This will just push up costs.
At the same time the crappy car runs around at the back, no TV time, sponsorship reduces, they can never get back to having their own car and being a team "proper".
I think this is another mad Bernie idea (see: watering tracks, medals) and he's testing the water. There is another solution he's aiming at, this is just noise.
Claire Williams said:
'We don't believe customer cars and three car teams to be in the DNA of our sport,' says Williams' deputy team principal Claire Williams. I think a more important question is why are we having those conversations and that's because there is talk that teams are in financial difficulty at the moment. I think we need to be addressing the cost issues in Formula One in order to support the teams that we currently have.
Easy to say, but the problem is teams don't want cost restrictions.I think the most telling problem is that there is no stepping stone to F1. Everything below is virtually an 'off the shelf' series. Lots of experience gained in setting up the cars but not in designing or building them. Essentially Formula Ford with knobs on.
There needs to be some form of overall plan, a way for teams to develop necessary skills and move up the formulae to F1.
Expense is mentioned time and again but F1 generates £billions, if not more, so the money is there. Some needs to get to teams wishing to enter.
One way to lower costs is honing restrictions. Limit the aerodynamics more, so cutting the costs of development and wind tunnel work. Limit suspension design. Have stricter arrangements of ancillaries, drivetrain, engine size, that sort of thing. Not so far as to make it a one make series but just enough to cuts costs for those starting, but they could still make midfield. The teams will still experiment to try and get an edge but the advantage they might get will be lower. A fraction of a percent.
Q1 is, at the moment, a parade. Wouldn't it be exciting if all cars stood a good chance of getting one or two cars through.
Give those who wish to make an effort a chance to shine and dominate. We'd end up, as normal, with around three teams dominating. Let the rest compete, with the dream that they might be able to take that final step. If there's rain or one team struggles with the tyres, then they will stand a chance of the podium.
And all the time not diluting the spectacle.
So no chance there then as it requires no concern for increasing income for the organisers.
There needs to be some form of overall plan, a way for teams to develop necessary skills and move up the formulae to F1.
Expense is mentioned time and again but F1 generates £billions, if not more, so the money is there. Some needs to get to teams wishing to enter.
One way to lower costs is honing restrictions. Limit the aerodynamics more, so cutting the costs of development and wind tunnel work. Limit suspension design. Have stricter arrangements of ancillaries, drivetrain, engine size, that sort of thing. Not so far as to make it a one make series but just enough to cuts costs for those starting, but they could still make midfield. The teams will still experiment to try and get an edge but the advantage they might get will be lower. A fraction of a percent.
Q1 is, at the moment, a parade. Wouldn't it be exciting if all cars stood a good chance of getting one or two cars through.
Give those who wish to make an effort a chance to shine and dominate. We'd end up, as normal, with around three teams dominating. Let the rest compete, with the dream that they might be able to take that final step. If there's rain or one team struggles with the tyres, then they will stand a chance of the podium.
And all the time not diluting the spectacle.
So no chance there then as it requires no concern for increasing income for the organisers.
Smollet said:
aeropilot said:
I'm sure there were a few races won by customer run factory spec cars into the mid 70's though...?
Struggling to think of one. Off the top of my head I think the last race won by a privateer was Jo Siffert in Rob Walkers Lotus 49 at Brands in 69. Not sure if Stewart won in a March the following year though.
In 1969 The British GP was at Silverstone.
Siffert's British GP 1968 win is usually credited with being the last World Championship F1 race won by a privateer.
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