**** American Grand Prix ***** (contains spoilers)

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Sorry, is the in reply to my post? If so....

Crafty_ said:

That doesn't solve anything. If you allow unlimited development the big teams will spend hundreds of millions on R&D.

Mercedes can afford that.
Sauber cannot.

Mercedes will win lots of races.
Sauber won't.

they possibly could if they were able to purchase the Mercedes "package"

Aside from that the teams can already buy engines, suspension setups, drivetrains from other teams, there is a limit on how many teams an engine manufacturer can supply. Why does tying this in to the entry solve anything ?
because if they can purchase all the mane components that cost so much money to develop for a fixed fee! they can simply budget how much it costs to go F1 racing and have a realistic business model to follow

Engine/Chassis/Fuel supply as part of a package precludes corporate deals - e.g. Petronas sponsor Mercedes and supply the fuel. If the only way to get fuel is through the entry package Merc just lost a sponsor.
no problem! sign with Mercedes for instance and you must take petronas as fuel and give them X amount of advertising space on the car. For petronas, they must agree to supply as many teams as Mercedes supply up to the agreed total.

None of the above is very difficult and gives a realistic business model for all involved. Any business (which is what F1 is) should have exactly that. Let's have a simple example (I know the figures might be a mile out);

Cost of entry to F1 paid to bernie
£50M

Cost of building engines for 3 teams for Mercedes
£50M

F1 pays Mercedes for engines for 3 teams
£20M

Cost for Mercedes for global exposure by entering F1
£30M

[woof]

thegreenhell said:

The team principal's press conference makes for interesting and sobering reading:

http://www.fia.com/news/2014-united-states-grand-p...

I watched that live last night and I was left thinking that F1 might not even exist next year! The big 3 teams have no interest in anything but themselves. Red Bull might have some paternal feelings towards Torro Rosso but would cut them off in an instant. It made for awkward viewing.

Also saw the Bernie and US promoter interview and can only agree with them both and have said the same from the beginning.

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

[Crafty_]

woof said:

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

I don't think the engines have caused all the problems, this has been going on for years. Unless you go back to pre sponsorship days F1 has always been expensive to compete in.

Marussia are said to have £140m debit since 2010, they were never going to be around long term.

[JonRB]

woof said:

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

So in your alternative reality, Renault didn't threaten to quit if there wasn't a move towards hybrids and it was all down to the FIA?

[Scuffers]

JonRB said:

woof said:

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

So in your alternative reality, Renault didn't threaten to quit if there wasn't a move towards hybrids and it was all down to the FIA?

with respect, do you think they have a long term anyway?

I can only see their performance this year as being negative, and being blunt, they are not going to suddenly get better any time soon...

[woof]

Scuffers said:

JonRB said:

woof said:

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

So in your alternative reality, Renault didn't threaten to quit if there wasn't a move towards hybrids and it was all down to the FIA?

with respect, do you think they have a long term anyway?

I can only see their performance this year as being negative, and being blunt, they are not going to suddenly get better any time soon...

Wasn't aware that renault wanted to quit - but you'd think if it was their idea that they would have been better prepared and delivered a decent engine for their teams. How many teams are running their engine next year - Just Red Bull ?
Renault are gone in 2016 then

[Crafty_]

Didn't see this linked anywhere, Frank Williams in hospital for "routine treatment" http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29855696

Claire has stayed here to be near him rather than go to the race.

I really hope it is purely routine and nothing ore sinister.

[RichB]

Crafty_ said:

...I really hope it is purely routine and nothing ore sinister.

I doubt it's anything sinister, more serious perhaps but not sinister. I can't see the Mafia bumping him off or the Ruskies knobbling him with a poison tipped umbrella.

[Europa1]

JonRB said:

Martin's full comment was that this is the kind of conversation that should be had behind closed doors with all interested parties in attendance - engineers, Team Principals, etc., and not in public like that.

I couldn't agree more.

This. That interview was a total embarrassment to the sport, given by the man who runs the sport. It beggars belief - teams going to the wall and he is still bhing about the noise.

I cannot believe people seem to think that more noise is going to fix the deep structural problems in the way F1 is (a) run and (b) presents itself to the world. Or that reversing it back in to 20th century technology will somehow sort it all out. It is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, not the Goodwood Revival.

[Crafty_]

Europa1 said:

This. That interview was a total embarrassment to the sport, given by the man who runs the sport. It beggars belief - teams going to the wall and he is still bhing about the noise.

I cannot believe people seem to think that more noise is going to fix the deep structural problems in the way F1 is (a) run and (b) presents itself to the world. Or that reversing it back in to 20th century technology will somehow sort it all out. It is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, not the Goodwood Revival.

No-one thinks that, its distraction, do not take Bernie at face value at any time.

I can well believe the promoter wants more noise though. F1 is pretty sanitised compared to what Americans are used to. Take a look at this, the recording of the sound is poor but you get the idea : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0rBNO03Zlk compare that to sitting tens (hundreds?) of feet away from the track at COTA.

By talking about the noise Bernie avoided any further questions about money.

[glazbagun]

Scuffers said:

JonRB said:

woof said:

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

So in your alternative reality, Renault didn't threaten to quit if there wasn't a move towards hybrids and it was all down to the FIA?

with respect, do you think they have a long term anyway?

I can only see their performance this year as being negative, and being blunt, they are not going to suddenly get better any time soon...

I wonder about that too. Renualt pulled out of F1 when their V10 was the best engine to have as they didn't see it doing them any good any more. PSA have killed their very competitive Le Mans team... how long can they continue to sink money into a venture which only serves to make them look bad.

Their only successes this year have been with Red Bull who have been openly critical of Renualt... I'm not sure what they're getting out of it.

[RYH64E]

JonRB said:

woof said:

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

So in your alternative reality, Renault didn't threaten to quit if there wasn't a move towards hybrids and it was all down to the FIA?

Renault have already quit as a constructor and it's made no difference to the show, if they'd quit as an engine supplier would it have been a problem? Mecachrome build their engines anyway, Red Bull would probably have stepped in and bought the engine rights from Renault, or done a deal with Cosworth, or something else.

I wouldn't be surprised if another season of humiliation by Mercedes led to Renault quitting anyway, the car manufacturers have proved to be fickle in the past and leave when F1 no longer serves their purpose. I can't see the slogan 'Renault F1, trounced by Mercedes (again)' helping to sell many road cars.

[Europa1]

Crafty_ said:

Europa1 said:

This. That interview was a total embarrassment to the sport, given by the man who runs the sport. It beggars belief - teams going to the wall and he is still bhing about the noise.

I cannot believe people seem to think that more noise is going to fix the deep structural problems in the way F1 is (a) run and (b) presents itself to the world. Or that reversing it back in to 20th century technology will somehow sort it all out. It is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, not the Goodwood Revival.

No-one thinks that, its distraction, do not take Bernie at face value at any time.

I can well believe the promoter wants more noise though. F1 is pretty sanitised compared to what Americans are used to. Take a look at this, the recording of the sound is poor but you get the idea : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0rBNO03Zlk compare that to sitting tens (hundreds?) of feet away from the track at COTA.

By talking about the noise Bernie avoided any further questions about money.

A lot of the posters on here seem to think "that".

[Derek Smith]

woof said:

I watched that live last night and I was left thinking that F1 might not even exist next year! The big 3 teams have no interest in anything but themselves. Red Bull might have some paternal feelings towards Torro Rosso but would cut them off in an instant. It made for awkward viewing.

Also saw the Bernie and US promoter interview and can only agree with them both and have said the same from the beginning.

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

I'm not sure the FIA were the lead in the new engines. They were merely the drafters of the regulations. The engine manufacturers had the major say. The regs were changed a number of times and the negotiation went on for years.

Also, did you notice the arrangement of the team representatives in the press conference? McL and Merc in the front row, the others somewhere else. And Ferrari not bothering.

I disagree about the arrangements being behind closed doors. Let's get it out in the open, let's have a chat about things. There is too much secrecy in F1 at the moment.

I've been told that in the 'old days' there was a fund for the also rans. A team that was struggling would be supported by way of a loan to continue in the sport and creditors paid off. It would appear that the need for this is not so apparent for those in control of the money.

[vonuber]

That TP discussion was depressing. The top teams are really short sighted in their view (understandably as it benefits them) but it will kill the sport.

I can see a future of maybe 3 or 4 teams if things go on like this - and who knows how long Mercedes will stay in the sport? Or redbull?

[Derek Smith]

vonuber said:

. . . and who knows how long Mercedes will stay in the sport? Or redbull?

I think we all know, don't we?

As soon as it doesn't make economic sense to remain in F1, they'll be off. For Merc it might also be when they want to reduce their numbers of employees and the unions resist the move because of the money 'wasted' in F1. Merc could leave with all the appearance of reluctance.

If RB continue to be an also-ran then they will be off sooner rather than later.

Renault - I wonder that they are still there.

Dennis and Williams/Head have been sh''t on over the years by those in charge yet they are the ones in it for the long term.

We all understand that the big companies will follow the money. When it leads to the exit, they'll be out.

[DanielSan]

But in that sense, teams have always gone, and new teams have always appeared. I do think that F1 needs to be more open at the moment

[MartG]

DanielSan said:

But in that sense, teams have always gone, and new teams have always appeared. I do think that F1 needs to be more open at the moment

The way it is structured financially at the moment new teams haven't really got a chance unless they can somehow come up with the £300M+ a year needed to be competitive - and even then expect to spend several years slowly improving.

Along with Sauber and FI, I'd be surprised if Haas lasts more than a few years unless there's a major shakeup

[Ahonen]

woof said:

The root cause of all these problems is these dam new engine regs. Brought in by the FIA and Todt.

It isn't. This has been building up for years as many teams have struggled on, constantly financially firefighting. What the introduction of the new engine regs has done is bring it rapidly to a head due to the extra expenditure required.

Outside of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull none of the teams are that secure. McLaren has no title sponsor and is clearly raiding the coffers this year. Think about that: the team which was winning multiple races as recently as 2012, with a huge reputation and a forthcoming works Honda deal, cannot attract a title sponsor. Williams has has to spend a huge amount of extra money, generating a £20m loss, to get back up there and the Martini deal isn't as lucrative as one might think. Lotus, the 2nd best outfit of 2013 let's remember, is in it up to its neck and came very close to going under a few times in the last 12-24 months. Torro Rosso is probably okay, but if DM's interest wanes much further he might not want to fund a junior team for much longer, while Sauber is completely skint and Force India is doing a sensational job on no money at all. It's not pretty at all.

We have European racetracks that make a loss on every GP they host regardless of how many outrageously overpriced tickets they sell to the public - Silverstone will make a loss on a three day sell out, for example. 0% finance deals to buy tickets to a sporting event? Really?!

And all BCE can say regarding the teams is 'they can f*ck off if they can't afford it' and then moans that Monza isn't economically viable anymore, thus forcing it to somehow find yet more money to fund the privilege of making a massive annual loss. And all the while CVC creams off 50% of the total F1 revenue every year for doing.....nothing.

But it'll all be okay because F1 is going to be floated on the stock market very soon and everyone will get a share.

We also have, as Ron Dennis pointed out earlier this year, the baffling situation where the promoter of the Championship is actively slating the new engines in public.

It is all completely crazy.

[FourWheelDrift]

Americans going mad for the sound of (last years) engines displayed in Austin. "WOW, amazing, hey lets go to the race".......

Race day - "Er, are we at the right race?"