**** American Grand Prix ***** (contains spoilers)
Discussion
mullerrice18 said:
Scuffers said:
mullerrice18 said:
There isn't anything wrong with what Vettel is doing, there is something wrong with the sport. It is the same as a football team making it to the FA cup final but being told the other team have a 2 goal advantage before the game began.
How so?What I mean by the football analogy is the games to get there are qualifying and the final is the race. You are at a disadvantage before the game or race has begun.
it's the same for everybody though, so how is that unfair?
if they had done a better job, they would not be needing the 6th engine etc.
I am sure Lewis could argue he would like a new one to replace the one that got toasted though no fault of his own... not going to happen though is it?
Scuffers said:
mullerrice18 said:
Scuffers said:
mullerrice18 said:
There isn't anything wrong with what Vettel is doing, there is something wrong with the sport. It is the same as a football team making it to the FA cup final but being told the other team have a 2 goal advantage before the game began.
How so?What I mean by the football analogy is the games to get there are qualifying and the final is the race. You are at a disadvantage before the game or race has begun.
it's the same for everybody though, so how is that unfair?
if they had done a better job, they would not be needing the 6th engine etc.
I am sure Lewis could argue he would like a new one to replace the one that got toasted though no fault of his own... not going to happen though is it?
t. Is it unfair that one is st? No, its annoying. Yes all the teams have the same rules, it is unfair on all the teams. When the rules mean that you don't even bother running Q1, something is wrong. Obviously there needs to be rules to stop teams turning up with a new engine every race. 5 engines for 19 races is stupid, 7/8 so that we don't see cars not running and starting in the pit lane would be better. A limited number of engines does put an emphasis on reliability which can relate back to road cars and have real world applications but it is effecting the sport for the worse.
mullerrice18 said:
You can have two identical cars that leave the factory one after the other with one being completely fine after a year and the other being a piece of st. Is it unfair that one is st? No, its annoying. Yes all the teams have the same rules, it is unfair on all the teams. When the rules mean that you don't even bother running Q1, something is wrong. Obviously there needs to be rules to stop teams turning up with a new engine every race. 5 engines for 19 races is stupid, 7/8 so that we don't see cars not running and starting in the pit lane would be better.
A limited number of engines does put an emphasis on reliability which can relate back to road cars and have real world applications but it is effecting the sport for the worse.
I agree, it's a st. Is it unfair that one is st? No, its annoying. Yes all the teams have the same rules, it is unfair on all the teams. When the rules mean that you don't even bother running Q1, something is wrong. Obviously there needs to be rules to stop teams turning up with a new engine every race. 5 engines for 19 races is stupid, 7/8 so that we don't see cars not running and starting in the pit lane would be better. A limited number of engines does put an emphasis on reliability which can relate back to road cars and have real world applications but it is effecting the sport for the worse.
t rule in some respects, but that still does not make it unfair...Scuffers said:
I agree, it's a st rule in some respects, but that still does not make it unfair...
Ok, maybe unfair is the wrong word to use. When teams are having to retire to save engines when they are not in the points instead of racing until the very last lap, I think that it is having a negative impact on the teams, the drivers and most importantly the fans. t rule in some respects, but that still does not make it unfair...mullerrice18 said:
Ok, maybe unfair is the wrong word to use. When teams are having to retire to save engines when they are not in the points instead of racing until the very last lap, I think that it is having a negative impact on the teams, the drivers and most importantly the fans.
It's certainly unfair on the fans.zac510 said:
If he had an electrical problem and couldn't do lap you'd just think "that's a shame."
But the result would be identical.
It's the motivation that makes the difference.But the result would be identical.
If a car had an electrical problem approaching the finish line and was overtaken by its team-mate, then that would be cruel luck. If a car deliberately slowed to let his team-mate win it is ( very unpopular ) team orders, though the result is the same.
MartG said:
zac510 said:
If he had an electrical problem and couldn't do lap you'd just think "that's a shame."
But the result would be identical.
It's the motivation that makes the difference.But the result would be identical.
If a car had an electrical problem approaching the finish line and was overtaken by its team-mate, then that would be cruel luck. If a car deliberately slowed to let his team-mate win it is ( very unpopular ) team orders, though the result is the same.
zac510 said:
MartG said:
zac510 said:
If he had an electrical problem and couldn't do lap you'd just think "that's a shame."
But the result would be identical.
It's the motivation that makes the difference.But the result would be identical.
If a car had an electrical problem approaching the finish line and was overtaken by its team-mate, then that would be cruel luck. If a car deliberately slowed to let his team-mate win it is ( very unpopular ) team orders, though the result is the same.
MartG said:
It doesn't matter when it happens, there's a difference between something happening by chance and the decision to deliberately do something
We are all making the first assumption here that the stewards will let him get away with not qualifying.I can see him doing a lap in q1.
Hub said:
Is there a list anywhere of drivers and numbers of engines used, or is this not public knowledge?
Published by the FIA at the start of every race weekend.It should appear on this page a bit later today or maybe tomorrow:
http://www.fia.com/championship/fia-formula-1-worl...
It will be called something like "FIA Technical report No 3"
This is the one from Russia: http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/championshi...
Although I follow F1 I don't normally contribute to these threads so forgive me if I'm missing something but what is so bad about him potentially missing qualifying? Surely he is harming himself far more by starting at the back then gaining any advantage by having an engine with 10 less laps on it?
Also if his engine is worn enough that he can't (or won't) qualify, does that mean after 10 or so laps of the race he is expecting the engine to let go?
What is the penalty for fitting a new engine?
Also if his engine is worn enough that he can't (or won't) qualify, does that mean after 10 or so laps of the race he is expecting the engine to let go?
What is the penalty for fitting a new engine?
The engine that will be in the car will be fine - its brand new.
Engines are now referred to as power units. A power unit consists of 6 components:
internal combustion engine
MGU-K (kinetic energy recovery system)
MGU-H (heat energy recovery system)
energy store (ERS battery)
turbocharger
control electronics
Each driver is allowed to use 5 of each of the above components per season (so 5 ICE, 5 turbos etc).
If they have to use a 6th component its a 10 place grid drop, the second time they use a 6th component its a 5 place drop, a 7th is 10 place drop, the second time a 7th item is used its a 5 place drop etc.
If the entire unit is changed the car must start from the pit lane.
Note that if the grid penalty cannot be full served at the race the remainder rolls over. So lets say there are 20 cars, you qualify 12th but have a 10 place drop you can't be dropped 10 places, so you drop to the back in this race and also have a 2 place drop in the next race.
So, vettel has a 10 place drop coming his way, I did read that he needed to change two components, so potentially an 15 place penalty (sporting regs do not denote if "totting up" happens, but lets assume it does).
So, lets say at COTA he qualifies 7th. That gives him a 11 place drop out of his 15, so at Brazil he'll have a 4 place drop too.
If they opt to change the entire power unit he starts from the pitlane at COTA, penalty done - no penalty in Brazil.
Engines are now referred to as power units. A power unit consists of 6 components:
internal combustion engine
MGU-K (kinetic energy recovery system)
MGU-H (heat energy recovery system)
energy store (ERS battery)
turbocharger
control electronics
Each driver is allowed to use 5 of each of the above components per season (so 5 ICE, 5 turbos etc).
If they have to use a 6th component its a 10 place grid drop, the second time they use a 6th component its a 5 place drop, a 7th is 10 place drop, the second time a 7th item is used its a 5 place drop etc.
If the entire unit is changed the car must start from the pit lane.
Note that if the grid penalty cannot be full served at the race the remainder rolls over. So lets say there are 20 cars, you qualify 12th but have a 10 place drop you can't be dropped 10 places, so you drop to the back in this race and also have a 2 place drop in the next race.
So, vettel has a 10 place drop coming his way, I did read that he needed to change two components, so potentially an 15 place penalty (sporting regs do not denote if "totting up" happens, but lets assume it does).
So, lets say at COTA he qualifies 7th. That gives him a 11 place drop out of his 15, so at Brazil he'll have a 4 place drop too.
If they opt to change the entire power unit he starts from the pitlane at COTA, penalty done - no penalty in Brazil.
Pet Troll said:
Although I follow F1 I don't normally contribute to these threads so forgive me if I'm missing something but what is so bad about him potentially missing qualifying? Surely he is harming himself far more by starting at the back then gaining any advantage by having an engine with 10 less laps on it?
Also if his engine is worn enough that he can't (or won't) qualify, does that mean after 10 or so laps of the race he is expecting the engine to let go?
What is the penalty for fitting a new engine?
Vettel will have a complete new power unit fitted for the race, his sixth of five allowed in a season by the rules, so it's an automatic pitlane start whether he sets a time in Q or not. Therefore, to save mileage on the new engine why would he bother to do any laps if the starting position will be the same.Also if his engine is worn enough that he can't (or won't) qualify, does that mean after 10 or so laps of the race he is expecting the engine to let go?
What is the penalty for fitting a new engine?
The issue with this, apart from his race being compromised before it's begun through no fault of his own, is that the fans who have paid to watch the spectacle of the world's best drivers qualifying their F1 cars will be denied the sight of the reigning and four-time world champion on track because of a stupid rule that overly penalises the driver for something beyond their reasonable control.
DanielSan said:
This is where I think the 107% rule should be enforced to the letter, that way he'd have to at least go and set a reasonable time in q1 rather than the bare minimum of setting a lap at half pace just to say he'd set a lap.
"During Q1, any driver whose best qualifying lap exceeds 107% of the fastest time set during that session, or who fails to set a time, will not be allowed to take part in the race. Under exceptional circumstances however, which may include setting a suitable lap time in a free practice session, the stewards may permit the car to start the race." Article 36.1 of the Sporting Regulations.So it is at the stewards' discretion, which under normal circumstances wouldn't be an issue for the reigning champion in a race-winning car. However, as RBR may be seen to be making a point about the rules by not bothering to set a lap time, perhaps the stewards might also decide to make a point? Unlikely, but stranger things have happened.
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