New F1 rules that work.
Discussion
what I don't understand with this whole thing is how have WEC/Le Mans got hybrid rules so right, and yet f1 balls them up!
its very difficult, because if you introduce a cost cap inevitably there would be job losses...you could have a maximum of 50 people per team which would bring down costs because there would be less wages and also less time per person to do r&d so the r&d cost would come down too...but then knowing f1 they would just end up setting up satellite companies and do it through them....
...theres no easy answer, the new rules don't help but theres no point in changing them now because its wasted money. customer cars are a good way to go for smaller teams because it would help them out, it works well in moto gp/superbikes
its very difficult, because if you introduce a cost cap inevitably there would be job losses...you could have a maximum of 50 people per team which would bring down costs because there would be less wages and also less time per person to do r&d so the r&d cost would come down too...but then knowing f1 they would just end up setting up satellite companies and do it through them....
...theres no easy answer, the new rules don't help but theres no point in changing them now because its wasted money. customer cars are a good way to go for smaller teams because it would help them out, it works well in moto gp/superbikes
Scuffers said:
the IC part is arguably much simpler.
Look, if everyday road cars can have MMC blocks, variavle valve timming/lift, variable compression, compound turbo's, variable vein turbo's, etc etc etc. yet F1 can spend millions on something all together simpler?
how is that ground breaking, hi-tech, etc?
You're missing half of the engine. Yeah the petrol driven part is arguably simpler, but you can't divorce it from the electronics.Look, if everyday road cars can have MMC blocks, variavle valve timming/lift, variable compression, compound turbo's, variable vein turbo's, etc etc etc. yet F1 can spend millions on something all together simpler?
how is that ground breaking, hi-tech, etc?
I drive an everyday 2litre Focus as it happens.
My wishlist of cars I want is a McLaren P1, Porsche 918 Spyder, Lambo Asterion or LaFerrari all have electric hybrid engines. (None of which I shall ever likely own sadly)
What I can actually afford and am planning to buy in 9 months is a Tesla S.
I can't be that unusual.
If you take the whole thing the Electronics and the ICE then things are much more high tech.
Some people tell me the electric hybrid stuff is a fashion fad, I think that ICEs are on the way out and electric cars are what we'll be driving in 20 years mostly.
VictorCharlie said:
You're missing half of the engine. Yeah the petrol driven part is arguably simpler, but you can't divorce it from the electronics.
I drive an everyday 2litre Focus as it happens.
My wishlist of cars I want is a McLaren P1, Porsche 918 Spyder, Lambo Asterion or LaFerrari all have electric hybrid engines. (None of which I shall ever likely own sadly)
What I can actually afford and am planning to buy in 9 months is a Tesla S.
I can't be that unusual.
If you take the whole thing the Electronics and the ICE then things are much more high tech.
Some people tell me the electric hybrid stuff is a fashion fad, I think that ICEs are on the way out and electric cars are what we'll be driving in 20 years mostly.
no, your quite right, the IC part is just that, a part.I drive an everyday 2litre Focus as it happens.
My wishlist of cars I want is a McLaren P1, Porsche 918 Spyder, Lambo Asterion or LaFerrari all have electric hybrid engines. (None of which I shall ever likely own sadly)
What I can actually afford and am planning to buy in 9 months is a Tesla S.
I can't be that unusual.
If you take the whole thing the Electronics and the ICE then things are much more high tech.
Some people tell me the electric hybrid stuff is a fashion fad, I think that ICEs are on the way out and electric cars are what we'll be driving in 20 years mostly.
the hybrid stuff is not new either though, Honda/Toyota have been selling road cars with the same for years before F1 even thought of it.
I would argue that F1 has done nothing that's not already been developed already commercially.
these days, road car development budgets make F1 budgets look small, you think they don't have electronics that are more than a match for F1's std ECU etc?
PW said:
Scuffers said:
how is that ground breaking, hi-tech, etc?
The only reason this years' engines are so much more expensive than last year is because last years' engines were a design that was 8 years old and they were more or less just paying for manufacturing.ANY new engine would require R&D that would make it more expensive than rummaging through the scrap yard for old junk like they were doing.
So just keep using the old engines forever? Try and beat the DFV's record? Then you get people moaning about how F1 is rubbish because it needs to be ground breaking, hi-tech, etc.
I doubt the new engines rules specifically are behind the high costs anyway - LMP1 engines are being produced on a fraction of the budget and are more advanced, more powerful, more reliable and more efficient.
Interesting
I have a friend who works at Brixworth..( merc engine manufacturing facility) I believe they employ 500 people there.
All the engines used in 2013 (last year of the V8s) were manufactured shrink wrapped and on the shelf at the end of 2012. The entire work force spent all of 2013 working on the new engine for 2014...I have no idea what the running costs of the site are .... but trying to recoup that by supplying 4 teams...eye watering
Shelsleyf2 said:
I have a friend who works at Brixworth..( merc engine manufacturing facility) I believe they employ 500 people there.
All the engines used in 2013 (last year of the V8s) were manufactured shrink wrapped and on the shelf at the end of 2012. The entire work force spent all of 2013 working on the new engine for 2014...I have no idea what the running costs of the site are .... but trying to recoup that by supplying 4 teams...eye watering
there are more than 500 staff there, (they do more than just the F1 engine stuff there). Last I was told, at peak, 800+ were working on the new powertrain (will have reduced a bit now I would expect).All the engines used in 2013 (last year of the V8s) were manufactured shrink wrapped and on the shelf at the end of 2012. The entire work force spent all of 2013 working on the new engine for 2014...I have no idea what the running costs of the site are .... but trying to recoup that by supplying 4 teams...eye watering
Race teams will always overstep the mark financially with the result of job losses. It’s just the same as on the race track when the drivers overstep the limit and crash.
There is also nothing that you can do about the race winner getting more media attention than the backmarkers. It’s the way that the media follow sport. The only reason that Sauber, Force India and whoever the other mob are the weekend is because they are rumoured to be boycotting the race.
There is also nothing that you can do about the race winner getting more media attention than the backmarkers. It’s the way that the media follow sport. The only reason that Sauber, Force India and whoever the other mob are the weekend is because they are rumoured to be boycotting the race.
I watched some WEC on Motors TV over the weekend. One thing was mentioned about tyres, and I liked the idea...
They have different tyres available, soft/hard, option/prime, whatever you want to call them. But the sidewalls arent colour coded, so the other teams can't tell if they are on soft or hard until a few laps have been put in and the times come through. Would put a bit more strategy into the tyre stops, not knowing what the other teams have put on in pit stops because they havent got coloured bands on the sidewalls to show what they are.
They have different tyres available, soft/hard, option/prime, whatever you want to call them. But the sidewalls arent colour coded, so the other teams can't tell if they are on soft or hard until a few laps have been put in and the times come through. Would put a bit more strategy into the tyre stops, not knowing what the other teams have put on in pit stops because they havent got coloured bands on the sidewalls to show what they are.
Surely if the rules are trying to push forward the hybrid technologies and their efficiency they wouldn't be limiting how much energy is allowed to be recovered each lap. I would have thought they would be encouraging the teams to develop novel ways to recover as much energy as possible as it would give them a performance advantage.
Unlikely to make good close racing though.
Unlikely to make good close racing though.
F1 could learn a lot from the world of prototypes in WEC...
Free up the hybrid system, there are too many restrictions. Teams will still spend millons and millions on developing one bolt if that's all they were allowed to develop.
Allow customer cars, the price per car per race would be dramatically reduced. Top teams not allowed to run paying drivers, customer teams allowed paying drivers. Raise grids to 30 cars.
Restrict the amount of updates allowed, say 3 aero updates per year. Money wasted on 4 off new wings, only one of which is run in FP1, then all are made obsolete...
Stop races in far away land that no one cares about... Bring it back to Europe, 3 fly aways at the start of the season and 3 at the end. Canada mid season? When did that ever make sense?! (For the record, I think Canada should stay on the calender, just moved to a better date) No one likes the Tilke tracks anyway. Freight costs would plumet.
Fixed.
Free up the hybrid system, there are too many restrictions. Teams will still spend millons and millions on developing one bolt if that's all they were allowed to develop.
Allow customer cars, the price per car per race would be dramatically reduced. Top teams not allowed to run paying drivers, customer teams allowed paying drivers. Raise grids to 30 cars.
Restrict the amount of updates allowed, say 3 aero updates per year. Money wasted on 4 off new wings, only one of which is run in FP1, then all are made obsolete...
Stop races in far away land that no one cares about... Bring it back to Europe, 3 fly aways at the start of the season and 3 at the end. Canada mid season? When did that ever make sense?! (For the record, I think Canada should stay on the calender, just moved to a better date) No one likes the Tilke tracks anyway. Freight costs would plumet.
Fixed.
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