Where did it all go wrong for the original Lotus team?
Discussion
It's all a bit before my time, but when I really started to get into F1 (Damon Hill, etc) Some low running team called Lotus merged with a backmarker team called Pacific. Then fizzled out. I remember people saying how sad it was, but didn't really attribute any significance to it. How epic was their decline when watching it unfold? Was the loss of Chapman the blow that killed them or were they just gradually eaten up by leaner, meaner teams?
Chapman's death and subsequent lack of a strong leader IMO. They had plenty of tobacco money, decent drivers and some of the best engines (JPS, Camel, Senna, Honda, Renault etc) yet never won a championship or mounted a consistent challenge after his death. There were a few flashes of brilliance (as with many midfield teams of that era)in the twilight years, but by then they were also-rans on a slippery slope.
I think it was with Chapman's death. After that as someone said they didn't capitalise on having strong drivers and engines.
Perhaps though the biggest killer was their failure to make their active suspension pay off in the '80s.
I believe the final fatal blow was a collision that took out Herbert on the first lap at the 1994 Monza GP, and knocked him off a potential, and financially critical, podium.
Perhaps though the biggest killer was their failure to make their active suspension pay off in the '80s.
I believe the final fatal blow was a collision that took out Herbert on the first lap at the 1994 Monza GP, and knocked him off a potential, and financially critical, podium.
dr_gn said:
Chapman's death and subsequent lack of a strong leader IMO. They had plenty of tobacco money, decent drivers and some of the best engines (JPS, Camel, Senna, Honda, Renault etc) yet never won a championship or mounted a consistent challenge after his death. There were a few flashes of brilliance (as with many midfield teams of that era)in the twilight years, but by then they were also-rans on a slippery slope.
That was a bit of a myth. The story goes Ron Dennis laughed when he was told how much Camel were paying for full title sponsorship. It was peanuts compared to what McLaren were getting from Marlboro.Money; resources - midfield team trying to operate like a big team; lacking in techical department
Peter Warr was strong but divisive leader - famously said Mansell wouldn't win a race as long as he had an a
hole; 'stole' Senna from Toleman; De Angelis was highly rated at the time so the mediocre drivers were the likes of Nakajima, Piquet admitted he was in it for the money and it truly went downhill there after.
As much as its easy to blame active suspension it was in its infancy. Mansell hated it a Williams and would rather not have it (whereas Patrick Head would); Senna preferred keeping it because having it had its advantages.
Senna famously vetoed Derek Warwick as team mate as he reckoned Lotus were big enough to support 2 strong drivers. Even though Piquet is lambasted post-Williams he said the cars were crap ie. too much chassis flex.
Peter Warr was strong but divisive leader - famously said Mansell wouldn't win a race as long as he had an a
hole; 'stole' Senna from Toleman; De Angelis was highly rated at the time so the mediocre drivers were the likes of Nakajima, Piquet admitted he was in it for the money and it truly went downhill there after.As much as its easy to blame active suspension it was in its infancy. Mansell hated it a Williams and would rather not have it (whereas Patrick Head would); Senna preferred keeping it because having it had its advantages.
Senna famously vetoed Derek Warwick as team mate as he reckoned Lotus were big enough to support 2 strong drivers. Even though Piquet is lambasted post-Williams he said the cars were crap ie. too much chassis flex.
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PW said:
When i first really started following F1 round about 1994 they were a back of the grid team and the road car company was selling a 18 year old sports car - Lotus didn't really mean anything to me.
I never saw the glory days, the innovation, the championships - I learned that later, and the resurgence with the success of the Elise and Exige was working: Lotus was a name I had respect for, maybe not as much as an older generation who saw their heyday, but it was positive.
For the last 5 years though, every time i have seen the word "Lotus" is has been associated with something bad - Bahar, the law suits in F1 over naming rights, the dodgy deals of genii and russian banks, a WEC team getting its cars impounded over unpaid debts, Quantum, and a motorcycle company that produces lovely CGI renders.
Wherever the "original" Lotus team went wrong pales in comparison to what they are doing now. They sell their badge to the lowest bidder to get cheap "exposure" in motorsport and get exactly what they pay for.
The only smart horse they backed was Rebellion in LMP1, but that stopped because Kolles wanted an LMP1 team of his own that could miss half the season then limp round 10s a lap off the pace when it wasn't attempting to kill drivers by pumping burning fuel into the cockpit.
Now, I don't want to see "Lotus" on motorsport entry lists; it represents nothing but failure;shoddy cars, shady deals and all the bad facets of motorsport.
It's 2014 and Lotus have a back of the grid F1 team and the road car company is selling an 18 year old sportscar...
There is, I think, some irony there in that shady deals and cars that tried to kill their drivers were always a part of Lotus even in the glory days. Chapman pushed the boundaries in every direction. I never saw the glory days, the innovation, the championships - I learned that later, and the resurgence with the success of the Elise and Exige was working: Lotus was a name I had respect for, maybe not as much as an older generation who saw their heyday, but it was positive.
For the last 5 years though, every time i have seen the word "Lotus" is has been associated with something bad - Bahar, the law suits in F1 over naming rights, the dodgy deals of genii and russian banks, a WEC team getting its cars impounded over unpaid debts, Quantum, and a motorcycle company that produces lovely CGI renders.
Wherever the "original" Lotus team went wrong pales in comparison to what they are doing now. They sell their badge to the lowest bidder to get cheap "exposure" in motorsport and get exactly what they pay for.
The only smart horse they backed was Rebellion in LMP1, but that stopped because Kolles wanted an LMP1 team of his own that could miss half the season then limp round 10s a lap off the pace when it wasn't attempting to kill drivers by pumping burning fuel into the cockpit.
Now, I don't want to see "Lotus" on motorsport entry lists; it represents nothing but failure;shoddy cars, shady deals and all the bad facets of motorsport.
It's 2014 and Lotus have a back of the grid F1 team and the road car company is selling an 18 year old sportscar...
Andy Allenton said:
I have to agree with PW. I'd rather not see the name Lotus in F1 these days. So sad that they were arguably the most successful team in F1 during the Chapman years. I don't think they would have remained at the top even if their founder was alive after that though.
And yet last season they were one of the most consistent challengers to Red Bull. Sadly usually only with one car, so the points tally wasn't really representative.At this point, as if my username wasn't enough clue, I should probably 'fess up to being from Norfolk...
Andy Allenton said:
I have to agree with PW. I'd rather not see the name Lotus in F1 these days. So sad that they were arguably the most successful team in F1 during the Chapman years. I don't think they would have remained at the top even if their founder was alive after that though.
Sadly there's too much romanticism in sport. eg. how many people liked the black/gold livery when it came back?
As with many things there isn't one single thing or person that causes things and with team it was almost death by a thousand cuts !
At the time he died Colin Chapman had built a race shop at Ketteringham hall that was state of the art for its day, tiled floors everywhere 20 years before Ron Dennis was doing it !
You can rest assured if he had of lived team would of taken a different path to the one it did
Following on from his death if you look at the development in F1 and the teams and you can see where Team started to loose out. CAD/CAM , wind tunnel testing ect
Lotus ran the 2nd ever carbon chassis in F1, McLaren ran the 1st 5 weeks before Lotus but theirs was made in America for them by a supplier to NASA.
The Lotus chassis was done in house by 5 guys in what use to be the stables at Ketteringham hall,that shows part of the problem and also why it was such a brilliant place
The 1st (and only)CAM turning centre we had came 2nd hand from Brabham when they upgraded
Martin Ogilve is a good designer but was a 100% pen an paper drawing board designer
Doucarouge was good an had Senna with Renault an Honda engines but didn't do any aero testing ! He "sculptured" the bodywork of the JPS cars over a couple of days
Peter Warr was a brilliant guy who did so much but when he left he was team manager,doing all the sponsorship,driver contracts ect in a time when other teams were expanding and going more professional
The Chapman family just took money out of the team post 82 -another cut
Not as much as Peter Collins who was a total con man !!!!
The staff were loyal to the very last day in 94 ( the biggest asset Lotus had) being owed 12 weeks money at one point and doing 80hr weeks for most of 94
By 94 the work that was done there was amazing but it was done with almost no resourses ,The TOMS GB factory at Hingham which was built in 93 and was doing f3 was night and day in front of Team by then not to even mention the other F1 teams !!!
At the time he died Colin Chapman had built a race shop at Ketteringham hall that was state of the art for its day, tiled floors everywhere 20 years before Ron Dennis was doing it !
You can rest assured if he had of lived team would of taken a different path to the one it did
Following on from his death if you look at the development in F1 and the teams and you can see where Team started to loose out. CAD/CAM , wind tunnel testing ect
Lotus ran the 2nd ever carbon chassis in F1, McLaren ran the 1st 5 weeks before Lotus but theirs was made in America for them by a supplier to NASA.
The Lotus chassis was done in house by 5 guys in what use to be the stables at Ketteringham hall,that shows part of the problem and also why it was such a brilliant place
The 1st (and only)CAM turning centre we had came 2nd hand from Brabham when they upgraded
Martin Ogilve is a good designer but was a 100% pen an paper drawing board designer
Doucarouge was good an had Senna with Renault an Honda engines but didn't do any aero testing ! He "sculptured" the bodywork of the JPS cars over a couple of days
Peter Warr was a brilliant guy who did so much but when he left he was team manager,doing all the sponsorship,driver contracts ect in a time when other teams were expanding and going more professional
The Chapman family just took money out of the team post 82 -another cut
Not as much as Peter Collins who was a total con man !!!!
The staff were loyal to the very last day in 94 ( the biggest asset Lotus had) being owed 12 weeks money at one point and doing 80hr weeks for most of 94
By 94 the work that was done there was amazing but it was done with almost no resourses ,The TOMS GB factory at Hingham which was built in 93 and was doing f3 was night and day in front of Team by then not to even mention the other F1 teams !!!
Hill Hunter said:
Fascinating stuff Rob. I assume you worked there, what was your role?
Composites mostly with a bit of spanner twirlingLive in Ketteringham an growing up, literally had an F1 team at the bottom of my garden
what I posted was only a little part of the story, you could write a book about the Collins years !!!
was only thinking back about things the other month as it was the 20th anniversary (god it dosent seem that long)
Had 5 years with David hunt post 94 trying to get team back and it was criminal the amount of effort people put into stopping him !!! TOP bloke
Just been through the Caterham experience and you could write an even better book about that than the Collins years !
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