More engine talk!
Discussion
rohrl said:
andyps said:
RobGT81 said:
Horner has suggested using twin turbo V6s next year
Another way of throwing toys out of the pram. Just because he is locked into an engine supply which he doesn't feel will have any advantage for 3-4 years he wants it changed. He really needs to think about what he is doing for the reputation of F1 and Red Bull. Grow some balls Christian, never mind wings.I'm not unconvinced that having his ahem, "wings clipped" at the last race was purely by chance.
As he's crying about cost reduction in relation to engines, howsabout we take a peek at the team budgets: https://infogr.am/team-f1-2014-budget-and-employee...
Looks to me like merc have not just build a devastatingly good package, they've done it on about two-thirds of RB's budget. Even ferrari have got the humility and sense to be quiet. Maybe mr horner should be trying to learn something about where his outfit have gone wrong rather then trying to lecture anyone on ahem, cost reduction?
Gaz. said:
hairyben said:
is the engine program not costed into the annual budget offset over multiple years?
Nope. Mercedes should break even by 2020 through engine sales and writing off the £25m per year that they would have paid for engines like their customers.Red bull have for some time, as is Neweys way, placed a lot of empathis on aero & chassis and perhaps regarded the power unit as a less important commodity. This may have served them well using the developed-to-near-homogeneous engines under the locked down rules in recent years, but perhaps they should have taken a different approach with the new regs and worked more closely with renault. Thats their biggest failing; I suppose for all his talent it might be Neweys Achilles heel, and horner needs to take his oil and get his best men working on it instead of whining that its not fair.
hairyben said:
So then, even if you add £25M to those or any other of the budget figures being bandied about my point still stands. Merc & co have still done both their sums and their engineering well and the result is a demonstration in good value.
Red bull have for some time, as is Neweys way, placed a lot of empathis on aero & chassis and perhaps regarded the power unit as a less important commodity. This may have served them well using the developed-to-near-homogeneous engines under the locked down rules in recent years, but perhaps they should have taken a different approach with the new regs and worked more closely with renault. Thats their biggest failing; I suppose for all his talent it might be Neweys Achilles heel, and horner needs to take his oil and get his best men working on it instead of whining that its not fair.
No, your point is plain wrong.Red bull have for some time, as is Neweys way, placed a lot of empathis on aero & chassis and perhaps regarded the power unit as a less important commodity. This may have served them well using the developed-to-near-homogeneous engines under the locked down rules in recent years, but perhaps they should have taken a different approach with the new regs and worked more closely with renault. Thats their biggest failing; I suppose for all his talent it might be Neweys Achilles heel, and horner needs to take his oil and get his best men working on it instead of whining that its not fair.
Merc HPE spent some $1Bn developing the new powertrain, what the teams pay for them is peanuts by comparison.
For ref, Renault spent about half that, and ferrari somewhere between.
Scuffers said:
No, your point is plain wrong.
Merc HPE spent some $1Bn developing the new powertrain, what the teams pay for them is peanuts by comparison.
For ref, Renault spent about half that, and ferrari somewhere between.
How is my point wrong?Merc HPE spent some $1Bn developing the new powertrain, what the teams pay for them is peanuts by comparison.
For ref, Renault spent about half that, and ferrari somewhere between.
I've seen a few different overall engine development cost figures bandies about most of which put them lesser and closer but what I've not heard disputed is that mercs engine program, like Gaz says, will be cost-neutral in the end once everyone (inc the merc team write off) have "paid" for their engines.
hairyben said:
How is my point wrong?
I've seen a few different overall engine development cost figures bandies about most of which put them lesser and closer but what I've not heard disputed is that mercs engine program, like Gaz says, will be cost-neutral in the end once everyone (inc the merc team write off) have "paid" for their engines.
Are you just bad at maths?I've seen a few different overall engine development cost figures bandies about most of which put them lesser and closer but what I've not heard disputed is that mercs engine program, like Gaz says, will be cost-neutral in the end once everyone (inc the merc team write off) have "paid" for their engines.
4 teams pay $25m for engine deals, that's $100m a year, so ow many years to pay back not forgetting the costs if building them and support still carries on year on year?
At one point, there were over 800 people at brixworth working on it, and they are not in minimum wage...
Scuffers said:
Are you just bad at maths?
4 teams pay $25m for engine deals, that's $100m a year, so ow many years to pay back not forgetting the costs if building them and support still carries on year on year?
At one point, there were over 800 people at brixworth working on it, and they are not in minimum wage...
And don't forget that even with the development freeze in place limited development is still allowed, and it's likely to be a free for all in 2016, so r&d costs are going to be substantial for the foreseeable future.4 teams pay $25m for engine deals, that's $100m a year, so ow many years to pay back not forgetting the costs if building them and support still carries on year on year?
At one point, there were over 800 people at brixworth working on it, and they are not in minimum wage...
Scuffers said:
hairyben said:
How is my point wrong?
I've seen a few different overall engine development cost figures bandies about most of which put them lesser and closer but what I've not heard disputed is that mercs engine program, like Gaz says, will be cost-neutral in the end once everyone (inc the merc team write off) have "paid" for their engines.
Are you just bad at maths?I've seen a few different overall engine development cost figures bandies about most of which put them lesser and closer but what I've not heard disputed is that mercs engine program, like Gaz says, will be cost-neutral in the end once everyone (inc the merc team write off) have "paid" for their engines.
4 teams pay $25m for engine deals, that's $100m a year, so ow many years to pay back not forgetting the costs if building them and support still carries on year on year?
At one point, there were over 800 people at brixworth working on it, and they are not in minimum wage...
Given your entire argument rests on it, and that it's much higher than anything I or other contributors understand, I think you should reveal the source of this £1B you claim has been spent by merc.
zac510 said:
Scuffers said:
At one point, there were over 800 people at brixworth working on it, and they are not in minimum wage...
Do you have a source for where you got the number of staff at HPE?About Us:
Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design, manufacture and testing of Formula 1 power units for MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, Force India F1 and the Williams F1 team.
The company is built on three pillars of success; Quality, Technical Excellence and Speed & Flexibility. These traits have seen the Mercedes-Benz Formula 1 engine power Lewis Hamilton (2008) and Jenson Button (2009) in the Formula 1 Drivers' World championship and Brawn GP in the 2009 Formula 1 Constructors' World Championship.
"The objective of Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains is to win Formula 1 World Championships"
REALIST123 said:
This is from some time ago, not sure when there where ever anything like 800 there, if ever.
About Us:
Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design
Well 800 is over 400 I suppose About Us:
Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design
But seriously, thanks for bringing a tiny bit of truth to the thread!
REALIST123 said:
zac510 said:
Scuffers said:
At one point, there were over 800 people at brixworth working on it, and they are not in minimum wage...
Do you have a source for where you got the number of staff at HPE?About Us:
Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design, manufacture and testing of Formula 1 power units for MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, Force India F1 and the Williams F1 team.
The company is built on three pillars of success; Quality, Technical Excellence and Speed & Flexibility. These traits have seen the Mercedes-Benz Formula 1 engine power Lewis Hamilton (2008) and Jenson Button (2009) in the Formula 1 Drivers' World championship and Brawn GP in the 2009 Formula 1 Constructors' World Championship.
"The objective of Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains is to win Formula 1 World Championships"
during the development last year, they drafted in a lot of outside help, mostly on the electronics/electro-mechanical side.
(Also worth remembering that not everybody on the project was on-site at Brixworth.)
Scuffers said:
REALIST123 said:
zac510 said:
Scuffers said:
At one point, there were over 800 people at brixworth working on it, and they are not in minimum wage...
Do you have a source for where you got the number of staff at HPE?About Us:
Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design, manufacture and testing of Formula 1 power units for MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, Force India F1 and the Williams F1 team.
The company is built on three pillars of success; Quality, Technical Excellence and Speed & Flexibility. These traits have seen the Mercedes-Benz Formula 1 engine power Lewis Hamilton (2008) and Jenson Button (2009) in the Formula 1 Drivers' World championship and Brawn GP in the 2009 Formula 1 Constructors' World Championship.
"The objective of Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains is to win Formula 1 World Championships"
during the development last year, they drafted in a lot of outside help, mostly on the electronics/electro-mechanical side.
(Also worth remembering that not everybody on the project was on-site at Brixworth.)
Whatever, RBR, Renault and everyone else only have themselves to blame. I don't remember these people moaning quite the same when they were pumping in the millions.
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