More engine talk!

[Scuffers]

andyps said:

You may be right, but it could also be as simple as the fact they won't really know until the engine is installed in a McLaren and driven on a track so having the chance to make some modifications once they have learned from that would be very helpful for them.

I would put good money on Honda having got one in the back of a car some time ago, and with the running data they have from this years McLaren, they will have it in a dyno cell doing race simulations solidly.

they have a massive advantage having the experience of McLarens running this year to know what the goal posts are, they will have seen the issues Renault and Ferrari have gone though as well as the stuff from Merc.

[fatboy69]

I see that Mr Horner wants to dump the current turbo engines & revert back to normally aspirated V8's.

Gets my vote.

[Pumajay]

According to Autosport it appears Christian Horner is called for F1 to go back to V8's "and its clear F1 rule makers got it wrong"

Im sorry but does this not sound like sour grapes? The team to beat suddenly become to beaten team and lose arguably their biggest assets in Newey and Vettel and now they moan about engines.

And anyway, its not like Red Bull have had a disaster of a season, 3 wins, 2nd in the constructors. Offer that to Ferrari and Mclaren and they'd bite your hand off!

Fact is... Renault and Ferrari new the 1.6 Turbo era was coming and they failed to prepare as well as Mercedes, simple.

Those who have done the work for 2014 have reaped the rewards, Mercedes have simply been the class of the field no one will argue that.

For me, if F1 does return the V8's and Bernie is calling for it as well. Then F1 will have lost all credibility, this is the top of motorsport, hence the name Formula 1, not Formula we dont know what we're doing. Its supposed to be at the cutting edge of technology, pushing the boundaries of what is possible and sometimes going beyond it.

The V8's are dinosaurs, extinct. Lets keep it that way.

[Scuffers]

fatboy69 said:

I see that Mr Horner wants to dump the current turbo engines & revert back to normally aspirated V8's.

Gets my vote.

have to say this but the sooner red bull get bored and run away the better.

[N0ddie]

So we'd lose Merc and Honda if we reverted to the V8s.

I thought Renault pushed hard for these new engines to?

[Scuffers]

N0ddie said:

So we'd lose Merc and Honda if we reverted to the V8s.

I thought Renault pushed hard for these new engines to?

they did

stunning how all these big professional companies are so short sighted.

don't get me wrong, I was never a fan of the old V8's, they were stupid money too.

I would like to see the engine rules opened up to anything goes, with 2 basic rules:

1) XXX litres of race fuel (and appropriate flow limits)
2) teams pay a fixed cost of $XX for an engine deal (and this being small enough not to bankrupt them)

[lbc]

Mercedes and Honda will pull out of F1 if V8's return, so can't see it happening.

[upsidedownmark]

BritishRacinGrin said:

Doink said:

Going back to the noise (or the lack of it) if they are going to unfreeze the rules then why don't they allow more revs (I know they allow 15 now but the engines stop at 12) and give them more fuel, surely revs = noise and more revs would require more fuel, surely if the freeze is lifted then now's the ideal time to do something with the noise

I believe they're getting even fewer power units in future so reliabilty is of too much importance to start increasing revs again.

Lack of revs has more to do with fuel than reliability - delivery (the peak flow limitation in particular) and the need to use it efficiently. While I'm not an engineer, I doubt there are any issues building engines that will rev to 15k all day - the v8's revved to a lot more, despite bigger pistons, and the loads / accelerations go up pretty dramatically with rpm, not in a linear fashion.

However, revs is a red herring. The noise 'problem' is the turbo (& efficiency). Noise is wasted energy/a by product of a lot of energy in the exhaust gas flow. The turbo recaptures a whole lot of that, and interferes with the pressure pulses going out of the exhaust. Basically it's acting as great big muffler as well as giving a whole lot more power.

Much to my surprise, I rather like the current engine formula.. I particularly like that has (to steal someone else's phrase) 'weaponised' hybrid technology. The problem seems to be the cost.

[celicawrc]

Pumajay said:

The V8's are dinosaurs, extinct. Lets keep it that way.

Why? Atleast they didn't sound like a bag of st.

Why not let the teams decide what engine they want to use? Why do all the teams have to have the same engine? It's ridiculous! Last time i checked F1 was not meant to be a one spec formula, which is what it is slowly turning into.

The regulations for the teams are far too restrictive and for what? To keep costs down? Yes that worked didn't it.....

[longblackcoat]

celicawrc said:

Pumajay said:

The V8's are dinosaurs, extinct. Lets keep it that way.

Why? Atleast they didn't sound like a bag of st.

Could have fooled me. The V8s were just horrible sounding, all blare and no character.

[geeks]

Simply it is too late to return to the V8 now.

Car designs for 2015 are probably there or there abouts completed, changing the engine now would lead to massive fallout.

Honda will leave.

Mercedes will leave.

Reintroducing the V8 will cost more than keeping the current engine.

The noise issue can be resolved but I really thought people had got over it now.

Those are just a few basic things off the top of my head but basically Bernie is bonkers, so who knows really

[maffski]

Scuffers said:

I would like to see the engine rules opened up to anything goes, with 2 basic rules:

1) XXX litres of race fuel (and appropriate flow limits)
2) teams pay a fixed cost of $XX for an engine deal (and this being small enough not to bankrupt them)

This, with

3) engine suppliers must be willing to supply four teams - so Ferrari / Mercedes can't spend a fortune on the engine and then only 'sell' it to themselves

[Daston]

I would be pissed if they went back to V8s after I went to silverstone this year (probably the only time I will get to watch F1 live). I was really let down by the sound of the V6's and was looking forward to hearing the V8s....at least Webbers old car was doing formation laps

[poppopbangbang]

Going back to V10s is the only answer. For a start we have 22 AsiaTechs that need a home, not to mention a few VJs. To be honest it might be best if we just run next season in place of the teams using 98 - 02 cars and give everyone a bit of a break to get sorted........ if nothing else it would stop everyone complaining about noise and pay my mortgage off

[Kickstart]

The costs of engines has to go down to keep F1 being multiple 2 car teams. I really don't think on balance that manufacturers bring positives to F1 - the costs have shot up with the new engines to the detriment of many teams and from a spectator's point of view the new engines don't make the racing more exciting so as to justify smaller teams going to the wall.

The green argument in F1 always seems ludicrous to me when you look at all the helicopters/Private Jets involved in a GP meeting.

[Dr Murdoch]

Smoke and mirrors.

Just a load of hot air to get Merc to agree to the engine de-freeze (or we will all revert to V8's, we will, honest...)

Classic Molsey, say something no one wants, then get them to compromise, the compromise being what you wanted all along.

[CharlesAL]

Kickstart said:

The costs of engines has to go down to keep F1 being multiple 2 car teams. I really don't think on balance that manufacturers bring positives to F1 - the costs have shot up with the new engines to the detriment of many teams and from a spectator's point of view the new engines don't make the racing more exciting so as to justify smaller teams going to the wall.

The green argument in F1 always seems ludicrous to me when you look at all the helicopters/Private Jets involved in a GP meeting.

Not true. There is still loads and loads of money in F1, it's just not being shared around fairly. The smaller teams would have gone to the wall eventually anyway, with or without the new formula.

Bringing V8s back would just be ridiculous. The V6s don't sound THAT bad. Sour grapes from Horner (again).

[Schermerhorn]

Customer car from leading teams is the only answer.

A 2014 Abu Dhabi Mercedes could be used by Force India (if they want to) for the 2015 F1 season. Two cars could be purchased for say $50,000,000. Force India are then in charge of their own development for that car and day to day running. Mercedes would obviously assist in engine matters only, the rest upto the buying team.

It would save millions in development costs and aero and give the team an excellent platform to work from. If the works team balls their new design up (like Williams 2011 > 2012 > 2013) we could see them tussling with their customer teams and maybe losing to them.

You have to give the little guys a small fighting chance.

[Doink]

Which race was it where DR won or was it FA, LH held off NR after NR pitted late for new tyres, if I remember rightly I didn't see any power deficit from the RB's when the merc couldn't get by

[mistakenplane]

Dr Murdoch said:

Smoke and mirrors.

Just a load of hot air to get Merc to agree to the engine de-freeze (or we will all revert to V8's, we will, honest...)

Classic Molsey, say something no one wants, then get them to compromise, the compromise being what you wanted all along.

Beat me to it, Bernie in one.

Whine and start a story about engine wars and increased costs through a mouthpiece you are close to (Horner), distracting people from what you want which is a slight increase on areas to improve.