More engine talk!
Discussion
which ones?
The power plants are very different team to team in LMP1 cars, they are restricted in terms of energy consumption with very open designs allowed. If you want to see the F1 engines costing more money, give the WEC rules to the F1 teams, they would come up with some very expensive systems by comparison.
The power plants are very different team to team in LMP1 cars, they are restricted in terms of energy consumption with very open designs allowed. If you want to see the F1 engines costing more money, give the WEC rules to the F1 teams, they would come up with some very expensive systems by comparison.
My brother builds the Nissan engines supplied by Nismo to some of the LMP2 WEC teams, its basically just a GTR engine with all the crap taken off it, obviously had other tuning work done and I think they have 450hp maybe even more (secretly) 
, give that same engine to whoever designs an F1 engine and I bet they could get 700 from it, so that being said why aren't F1 engines say based on a standard block from the manufacturers range to try and keep costs down?
Another question, why not allow superchargers.....or do they, if so why did the teams all go for turbos? Bernie in the interview at Austin with Ted Kravitz said that they WILL do something about the noise for next year, how? With a supercharger not being driven by the exhaust gases I wonder if this would be something they could/are/will look at?
, give that same engine to whoever designs an F1 engine and I bet they could get 700 from it, so that being said why aren't F1 engines say based on a standard block from the manufacturers range to try and keep costs down?Another question, why not allow superchargers.....or do they, if so why did the teams all go for turbos? Bernie in the interview at Austin with Ted Kravitz said that they WILL do something about the noise for next year, how? With a supercharger not being driven by the exhaust gases I wonder if this would be something they could/are/will look at?
Scuffers said:
I still think the better solution would be a fixed cost for the engine to the teams.
If the engine builders want to spend more, that's their problem/budget.
There are two problems though, one is the cost to the teams and the other is supplying a product that enhances the appeal of the sport. If the engine builders want to spend more, that's their problem/budget.
A significant percentage of fans (not all, obviously) don't like these engines regardless of cost, and if that dislike translates into lower attendance at races, fewer tv viewers, not so many new fans etc, then that's not good for the promoters, sponsors or F1.
Scuffers said:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06/25/the-onom...
which if right, makes the V8's look expensive, although I would suggest when the engine freeze was applied, the costs must have tumbled as what was there to develop? (although that did not seem to stop Renault from memory!)
Many products remain expensive despite being fully developed, it's just profit from that point on... I can't see why they would pass on the savings if they know that the teams could bear the cost surely? which if right, makes the V8's look expensive, although I would suggest when the engine freeze was applied, the costs must have tumbled as what was there to develop? (although that did not seem to stop Renault from memory!)
Doink said:
My brother builds the Nissan engines supplied by Nismo to some of the LMP2 WEC teams, its basically just a GTR engine with all the crap taken off it, obviously had other tuning work done and I think they have 450hp maybe even more (secretly) , give that same engine to whoever designs an F1 engine and I bet they could get 700 from it, so that being said why aren't F1 engines say based on a standard block from the manufacturers range to try and keep costs down?
Another question, why not allow superchargers.....or do they, if so why did the teams all go for turbos? Bernie in the interview at Austin with Ted Kravitz said that they WILL do something about the noise for next year, how? With a supercharger not being driven by the exhaust gases I wonder if this would be something they could/are/will look at?
I thought that supercharging would be a partial solution to the economy vs sound debate, but the entire power unit and especially the ERS would need redesigning; it would be another stupidly massive expense. , give that same engine to whoever designs an F1 engine and I bet they could get 700 from it, so that being said why aren't F1 engines say based on a standard block from the manufacturers range to try and keep costs down?Another question, why not allow superchargers.....or do they, if so why did the teams all go for turbos? Bernie in the interview at Austin with Ted Kravitz said that they WILL do something about the noise for next year, how? With a supercharger not being driven by the exhaust gases I wonder if this would be something they could/are/will look at?
A supercharged 2 litre V10 would make an interesting noise though...
RemarkLima said:
Scuffers said:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06/25/the-onom...
which if right, makes the V8's look expensive, although I would suggest when the engine freeze was applied, the costs must have tumbled as what was there to develop? (although that did not seem to stop Renault from memory!)
Many products remain expensive despite being fully developed, it's just profit from that point on... I can't see why they would pass on the savings if they know that the teams could bear the cost surely? which if right, makes the V8's look expensive, although I would suggest when the engine freeze was applied, the costs must have tumbled as what was there to develop? (although that did not seem to stop Renault from memory!)
Hell, I would like to see them have a £1M PA engine contract, that would focus some minds..
people go on about trickle down to road cars, well, he's an idea, go back to how Rally rules used to work, you have to make 5,000 of them to take one racing, so they would have to use a road car engine as the basis, we might just get some really special road cars then!
PW said:
Doink said:
My brother builds the Nissan engines supplied by Nismo to some of the LMP2 WEC teams, its basically just a GTR engine with all the crap taken off it
The LMP2 engine is a 4.5L V8, and the GT-R engine is a 3.8L V6.Doink said:
PW said:
Doink said:
My brother builds the Nissan engines supplied by Nismo to some of the LMP2 WEC teams, its basically just a GTR engine with all the crap taken off it
The LMP2 engine is a 4.5L V8, and the GT-R engine is a 3.8L V6.Though I accept that the two extra cylinders might be tough to explain.............
Leithen said:
Can't help thinking that some similarity to LMP1 power plants might have been a wise move.
Aside from the architecture (ie v-angle) which is fairly trivial, the rules are at least are philosophically very similar, both being fuel flow restricted, hybrid engines. There must be a lot of crossover in hybrid control electronics and strategy around working with the fuel flow.Doink said:
PW said:
Doink said:
My brother builds the Nissan engines supplied by Nismo to some of the LMP2 WEC teams, its basically just a GTR engine with all the crap taken off it
The LMP2 engine is a 4.5L V8, and the GT-R engine is a 3.8L V6.If one of the concerns is supply, then costs and relevance ought to be uppermost in the regulators minds.
To have two of the top formulas effectively unrelated in terms of engine formula is nuts. You immediately divide the available supply.
They don't need to be identical, but there ought to be a basis which allows supply to both formulae be cost effective.
To have two of the top formulas effectively unrelated in terms of engine formula is nuts. You immediately divide the available supply.
They don't need to be identical, but there ought to be a basis which allows supply to both formulae be cost effective.
Leithen said:
If one of the concerns is supply, then costs and relevance ought to be uppermost in the regulators minds.
To have two of the top formulas effectively unrelated in terms of engine formula is nuts. You immediately divide the available supply.
They don't need to be identical, but there ought to be a basis which allows supply to both formulae be cost effective.
I seem to remember there being a long term aim to have a universal engine formula - think it was a Max Mosley idea.To have two of the top formulas effectively unrelated in terms of engine formula is nuts. You immediately divide the available supply.
They don't need to be identical, but there ought to be a basis which allows supply to both formulae be cost effective.
andyps said:
I seem to remember there being a long term aim to have a universal engine formula - think it was a Max Mosley idea.
It was going to be a 1.6 turbo 4 pot.That idea got shelved in F1 after companies like Cosworth had invested heavily in it, there was even a guy on here that was a part of that project who went silent when the V6's were pushed through instead.
The remains of those engine rules are now seen in WRC and WTCC, which both are asthmatic slow uninspiring shadows or their former selves.
Scuffers said:
The old one-size-fits-all crap...
Screws everybody and suits nobody.
Which is not what we're talking about. With hybrids consisting of many different elements, making sure the formula for both Le Mans and F1 had some form of shared technology basis would improve supply possibilities for both. They don't have to be identical, far from it.Screws everybody and suits nobody.
At the moment it's a mess, driven by the manufacturers. The chance of the FIA leading on something like this is of course close to zero. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
Right now LMP1 is arguably much more interesting than F1 - which is bonkers considering the commercial disparities.
Leithen said:
Which is not what we're talking about. With hybrids consisting of many different elements, making sure the formula for both Le Mans and F1 had some form of shared technology basis would improve supply possibilities for both. They don't have to be identical, far from it.
At the moment it's a mess, driven by the manufacturers. The chance of the FIA leading on something like this is of course close to zero. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
Right now LMP1 is arguably much more interesting than F1 - which is bonkers considering the commercial disparities.
Sorry but the 1.6 litre turbo standard engine is exactly what i was talking aboutAt the moment it's a mess, driven by the manufacturers. The chance of the FIA leading on something like this is of course close to zero. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
Right now LMP1 is arguably much more interesting than F1 - which is bonkers considering the commercial disparities.
Interesting numbers here:
Lotus Sauber and Force India said:
In order to highlight the scale of the problem the letter says that they received money from FOM this year ranging from $52 million to $64 million.
“The costs of the power unit together with the installation costs amount on average amongst us three to $43 million. This clearly shows that 70-80 percent of the FOM income has to be allocated to the engine.”
The letter goes on to say that “unlike manufacturer-owned teams, our core business is Formula 1. Yet, we have no choice but to spend most of our income on the engine, and the remaining 30 percent is by far not enough to construct, enter and run a team over a 20-race season.
Average engine costs of $43m per team, ok if there's a payback through sales of road cars or fizzy drink but unsustainable for a dedicated F1 team.“The costs of the power unit together with the installation costs amount on average amongst us three to $43 million. This clearly shows that 70-80 percent of the FOM income has to be allocated to the engine.”
The letter goes on to say that “unlike manufacturer-owned teams, our core business is Formula 1. Yet, we have no choice but to spend most of our income on the engine, and the remaining 30 percent is by far not enough to construct, enter and run a team over a 20-race season.
Edited by RYH64E on Monday 17th November 20:13
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