More engine talk!

[Scuffers]

utter bargains these new engines!

[Leithen]

Within two years we end up with Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, Torro Rosso and Williams, all running three cars or supplying "customer teams" with "factory" support. They are all running Mercedes, Ferrari or Honda powerplants.

Mercedes, having won three in a row are having boardroom battles surrounding the F1 project cost and the moribund German economy.

Ferrari, having failed to usurp Mercedes have lost interest under Sergio Marchionne's control, who realises that they can sell up to 10,000 cars a year whether in F1 or out, for decades to come.

McLaren have also succumbed to internal strife, with Dennis weakened by both the F1 teams lack of success and their performance car division's lack of profit.

Williams are simply struggling to balance the books as lead sponsors disappear to the hills.

Bernie finally pops his clogs and CVC are desperate to flog the thing.

If he's interested, and it's a big if, Dietrich Mateschitz could be perfectly positioned to take over F1 in the next couple of years aided by this engine debacle. He's about the only one I can see who might pull it all back together. If he decides to turn his back, heaven help F1.

[andyps]

RYH64E said:

Interesting numbers here:

Lotus Sauber and Force India said:

In order to highlight the scale of the problem the letter says that they received money from FOM this year ranging from $52 million to $64 million.

“The costs of the power unit together with the installation costs amount on average amongst us three to $43 million. This clearly shows that 70-80 percent of the FOM income has to be allocated to the engine.”

The letter goes on to say that “unlike manufacturer-owned teams, our core business is Formula 1. Yet, we have no choice but to spend most of our income on the engine, and the remaining 30 percent is by far not enough to construct, enter and run a team over a 20-race season.

Average engine costs of $43m per team, ok if there's a payback through sales of road cars or fizzy drink but unsustainable for a dedicated F1 team.

Edited by RYH64E on Monday 17th November 20:13

I presume another part of the equation has been answered by the Caterham crowd funding - they have said they are definitely racing this weekend having raised just under £2m to do so, presumably that gives an indication that to get the team to the race, all the costs involved in being there and getting back costs somewhere in that region, making it potentially £40m per year, or at least $50 just to get to races with a car you have already designed and developed.

So taking best case of $64m from FOM, spending $43 on engines and $50 on travel they need $30 just to get to races and then development costs on top of that.

[Scuffers]

PW said:

“Yet, we have no choice but to spend most of our income on the engine, and the remaining 30 percent is by far not enough to construct, enter and run a team over a 20-race season."

Lotus - who recently announced a switch to the most expensive cheapest engine available. "No choice".

corrected that for you, Renault are the most expensive, Merc the cheapest by all accounts.

[rdjohn]

Scuffers said:

corrected that for you, Renault are the most expensive, Merc the cheapest by all accounts.

To the tune of about $14 million; a very helping hand to get you to 20 races next year.

[Scuffers]

no matter what happens in the short term, I do not believe Renault have a long term future in F1 unless something dramatic changes.

their engine is crap, and the most expensive, and with Honda coming in, assuming they do not make a hash of it, no team is going to stick with an over-priced, under-powered option.

[rdjohn]

I suspect that RB will pay whatever it costs to be competitive.

Now that Ferrari are becoming a PLC and may loose their only customer, it might be they who feel the squeeze first.

[VolvoT5]

Scuffers said:

no matter what happens in the short term, I do not believe Renault have a long term future in F1 unless something dramatic changes.

their engine is crap, and the most expensive, and with Honda coming in, assuming they do not make a hash of it, no team is going to stick with an over-priced, under-powered option.

Renault didn't even have the best engine in the V8 era did they? Seem to remember RB were always dog slow in a line vs the Mercs and Ferrari.

[rdjohn]

But in fairness they were master of exhaust blowing engine maps. They always set the agenda.

The forward facing outlets in the Lotus when they were the "works" team was bluesky thinking at its best.

Their efforts with RB left the rest for dead for 3 years, on the trot. I do think that they will either make a big comeback next year, or depart with tail between legs like PURE did.

[RYH64E]

VolvoT5 said:

Renault didn't even have the best engine in the V8 era did they? Seem to remember RB were always dog slow in a line vs the Mercs and Ferrari.

Even if the Renault V8 wasn't the best it wasn't far off the pace, Red Bull's lack of top speed was more due to their aero choices than lack of grunt, and they got a lot of good publicity from powering the championship winning car for 4 years on the trot.

What's in it for them currently? Humiliation by Mercedes, criticism from Red Bull, and the prospect of spending a shed load more money to try to get back to parity. If they've got any sense they'll be off, leaving their hybrid poisoned chalice behind.

[rdjohn]

Gaz. said:

they also ran a very weedy mini-KERS in the gearbox with half the power and certainly a fraction of the reliability of the conventional KER units.

Wasn't that only run on Webber's car?

[RobGT81]

Horner has suggested using twin turbo V6s next year

[rdjohn]

That was in response to majority voting being available to the strategy group in 2016. So 2017 would be the earliest season and assumes that Ferrari and Honda would want to change; and that is a very big IF.

My guess is that Renault would quit as the current engines were theirs and PUREs big idea and I can't see Honda being that enthusiastic.

Assuming that Mercedes and Ferrari are OK with yet another change, it sounds a great idea to me as it does actually reflect where state-of-the-art road hybrids are, and hopefully affordable for all teams.

[Scuffers]

RobGT81 said:

Horner has suggested using twin turbo V6s next year

that would ramp up the costs dramatically, two MGU-H's, more inverters, control electronics, etc etc.

[Lazadude]

Scuffers said:

that would ramp up the costs dramatically, two MGU-H's, more inverters, control electronics, etc etc.

As I wrote in the race thread, it would also remove the cooling/location benefits of the Merc drivetrain package, as you can't thread a turbo driveshaft between the V's of the engine.

Twin turbos in a non sequential pattern would be one on each banks.

[zac510]

RobGT81 said:

Horner has suggested using twin turbo V6s next year

He's obviously trolling. No way that's realistically going to happen! Well, perhaps slightly more possible than a switch back to V8s.

[andyps]

RobGT81 said:

Horner has suggested using twin turbo V6s next year

Another way of throwing toys out of the pram. Just because he is locked into an engine supply which he doesn't feel will have any advantage for 3-4 years he wants it changed. He really needs to think about what he is doing for the reputation of F1 and Red Bull. Grow some balls Christian, never mind wings.

[Crafty_]

RobGT81 said:

Horner has suggested using twin turbo V6s next year

2 weeks ago he said they should go back to V8s, now its twin turbo V6s with a "standard energy recovery system" to reduce costs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30152777

So, wait, redesigning not only the engine to run twin turbos but all the packaging too, and changing the entire ERS ? Yep, sounds like it'll reduce costs

Renault must be deep in the hole on their engine for Horner to keep spouting random ideas like this and it would seem they are increasingly desperate to find any way to catch up.

[Scuffers]

Crafty_ said:

2 weeks ago he said they should go back to V8s, now its twin turbo V6s with a "standard energy recovery system" to reduce costs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30152777

So, wait, redesigning not only the engine to run twin turbos but all the packaging too, and changing the entire ERS ? Yep, sounds like it'll reduce costs

Renault must be deep in the hole on their engine for Horner to keep spouting random ideas like this and it would seem they are increasingly desperate to find any way to catch up.

they are...

the problem is that their MGU-H recovery system is st, this is why the Merc's are so good not only on power but fuel consumption too, they have the best MGU-H implementation by far.

it's the same story at Ferrari just not to the same extent as Renault.

I was told that Merc are approaching to 100Kw out of their MGU-H setup and this is where they can get most of the extra HP from over the winter

[rohrl]

andyps said:

RobGT81 said:

Horner has suggested using twin turbo V6s next year

Another way of throwing toys out of the pram. Just because he is locked into an engine supply which he doesn't feel will have any advantage for 3-4 years he wants it changed. He really needs to think about what he is doing for the reputation of F1 and Red Bull. Grow some balls Christian, never mind wings.

Quite. Horner was very happy with the rules when Red Bull were winning every weekend but now his team are on the back foot he wants to change everything.