**** Abu Dhabi Grand Prix **** (contains spoilers)

[enjo]

I think that is a little unfair on Webber during the earlier seasons.

[PulsatingStar]

Jonsnow606 said:

I think everyone will acknowledge the Merc was head and shoulders above the rest this season, but we can't forget that for Lewis to win the Championship this year, it was far more of a challenge than any of Sebastian Vettel's 4 championship seasons.

He had a genuine apponent, and it was a genuine fight till the end.

It wasnt really was it. 4 drivers were still in with a chance in 2010 and Vettel was only in 3rd place starting the race.

[BrabusMog]

PulsatingStar said:

Jonsnow606 said:

I think everyone will acknowledge the Merc was head and shoulders above the rest this season, but we can't forget that for Lewis to win the Championship this year, it was far more of a challenge than any of Sebastian Vettel's 4 championship seasons.

He had a genuine apponent, and it was a genuine fight till the end.

It wasnt really was it. 4 drivers were still in with a chance in 2010 and Vettel was only in 3rd place starting the race.

Don't come on here with your facts and get in the way of a good argument!

[Dr Z]

BrabusMog said:

PulsatingStar said:

Jonsnow606 said:

I think everyone will acknowledge the Merc was head and shoulders above the rest this season, but we can't forget that for Lewis to win the Championship this year, it was far more of a challenge than any of Sebastian Vettel's 4 championship seasons.

He had a genuine apponent, and it was a genuine fight till the end.

It wasnt really was it. 4 drivers were still in with a chance in 2010 and Vettel was only in 3rd place starting the race.

Don't come on here with your facts and get in the way of a good argument!

Exactly! The anti-Vettel bias on here sometimes beggars belief. Except 2011, all the other championships of Vettel were much, much harder than the 2014 season was, for Hamilton. It is always better to have to just beat your team mate, than worry about other teams, given all the data sharing and learning goes on within the team. If you have to beat a guy from another team, you're pretty much on your own and that is much harder than going back to the garage and analysing why your team mate was faster and finding a way to beat him.

[NewMetalSystem]

Dr Z said:

BrabusMog said:

PulsatingStar said:

Jonsnow606 said:

I think everyone will acknowledge the Merc was head and shoulders above the rest this season, but we can't forget that for Lewis to win the Championship this year, it was far more of a challenge than any of Sebastian Vettel's 4 championship seasons.

He had a genuine apponent, and it was a genuine fight till the end.

It wasnt really was it. 4 drivers were still in with a chance in 2010 and Vettel was only in 3rd place starting the race.

Don't come on here with your facts and get in the way of a good argument!

Exactly! The anti-Vettel bias on here sometimes beggars belief. Except 2011, all the other championships of Vettel were much, much harder than the 2014 season was, for Hamilton. It is always better to have to just beat your team mate, than worry about other teams, given all the data sharing and learning goes on within the team. If you have to beat a guy from another team, you're pretty much on your own and that is much harder than going back to the garage and analysing why your team mate was faster and finding a way to beat him.

2013 was a walkover for Seb.

I disagree though. Fighting your team-mate divides the garage. Imagine how tense it is to be sitting inches away from your main rival all season long. How much do you share, how much do you keep to yourself, etc. There's nowhere to hide. You can only really trust yourself, because you know that the people wielding power have to stay out of it. That would make me feel more alone than fighting someone in a garage several doors down. At least when you're fighting someone from another team, you've got your team principle and the rest of the garage in your corner, you can decide strategies for yourself and you can lock yourself away in the motorhome away from the world when it all gets a bit tough.

[Jonsnow606]

Look back at the stats of each season and the red bull dominance is obvious.

1. The team had a blatant no.1 in seb,

2. Stir in the pot his closest rival being fernandos and his performance in a turd of a Ferrari over the period

The one season that went down to the wire was due to vettel not performing as well as he should (probably because his not as good as first thought), NOT the dominance of the red bull car, which again, was obvious to see.

The rest of the 3 championships had NO other challengers.

Seb has proven not to be as good as first thought with having his ass handed to him this season by his team-mate, which further emphasises my point on how dominant the red bull car was over the 4 championships.

So my point remains, lewis' 2014 championship was FAR harder to get than ANY of Sebs four.

Dr Z said:

BrabusMog said:

PulsatingStar said:

Jonsnow606 said:

I think everyone will acknowledge the Merc was head and shoulders above the rest this season, but we can't forget that for Lewis to win the Championship this year, it was far more of a challenge than any of Sebastian Vettel's 4 championship seasons.

He had a genuine apponent, and it was a genuine fight till the end.

It wasnt really was it. 4 drivers were still in with a chance in 2010 and Vettel was only in 3rd place starting the race.

Don't come on here with your facts and get in the way of a good argument!

Exactly! The anti-Vettel bias on here sometimes beggars belief. Except 2011, all the other championships of Vettel were much, much harder than the 2014 season was, for Hamilton. It is always better to have to just beat your team mate, than worry about other teams, given all the data sharing and learning goes on within the team. If you have to beat a guy from another team, you're pretty much on your own and that is much harder than going back to the garage and analysing why your team mate was faster and finding a way to beat him.

[ajprice]

I was chatting lastnight about Seb. If Webber had stayed on this year, he would have finished the year about level or probably ahead of Vettel on points. I don't think he's be up with what Ricciardo has done this year though.

[heebeegeetee]

Sebs first championship was a worthy one, but the remaining three were pretty much the case of turning up for each race. It's especially galling now he's not looking so special the moment he does get some competition.

Still time to tell though. Perhaps Ricciardo will turn out to be better than all the current runners.

[Bonefish Blues]

heebeegeetee said:

Sebs first championship was a worthy one, but the remaining three were pretty much the case of turning up for each race. It's especially galling now he's not looking so special the moment he does get some competition.

Still time to tell though. Perhaps Ricciardo will turn out to be better than all the current runners.

I can't recall a multi-WDC with more questions hanging over him than Vettel.

[toppstuff]

Dr Z said:

Exactly! The anti-Vettel bias on here sometimes beggars belief.

I am not sure about that. I am no great fan of any single driver, I tend to see them as jockeys that are interchangeable.

I think the big issue for me is that Vettels performance in 2014 really illustrates how dominant the Red Bull team were in using the blown diffuser. No-one in the world new how to drive that kind of car better than Vettel.

Without that tech, he looks like a very good driver, rather than an exceptional one.

One of the most interesting things about 2015 will be seeing just how well he does at Ferrari.

[Scuffers]

EskimoArapaho said:

Interesting graphic:



Shows the gulf in performance - the Mercedes even after losing ERS was still as fast as the Caterhams.

you need to keep in mind that losing ERS was only about energy recovery from braking, the MGU-H was still very much working and feeding power to the MGU-K, so it's not like he *lost* 160Hp 100%.

one of the reasons the Merc powertrain is so good is that their power recovery from the MGU-H is way ahead of the others.

[Jonsnow606]

Ricciardo will be wdc given a decent car, which I hope is sooner rather than later.
Given afew years, I've no doubt he'll start to be compared to Lewis and Alonso.

Edited by Jonsnow606 on Tuesday 25th November 13:23

[Derek Smith]

NewMetalSystem said:

2013 was a walkover for Seb.

I disagree though. Fighting your team-mate divides the garage. Imagine how tense it is to be sitting inches away from your main rival all season long. How much do you share, how much do you keep to yourself, etc. There's nowhere to hide. You can only really trust yourself, because you know that the people wielding power have to stay out of it. That would make me feel more alone than fighting someone in a garage several doors down. At least when you're fighting someone from another team, you've got your team principle and the rest of the garage in your corner, you can decide strategies for yourself and you can lock yourself away in the motorhome away from the world when it all gets a bit tough.

Interesting series of articles in The Times today, one of this very subject.

There was a description of the post-Spa debrief and the schism between the two sides of the garage was nicely described.

I've always assumed that the competition between drivers in identical cars is the most 'pure' in the sense that there are no excuses. We can all believe that the Ferrari was flattered by Alonso's driving.

If there are two different but more or less equal cars, then the norm has been over the years that one car would be better at specific circuits - low downforce, better on fast open corners, that sort of thing.

NR is, if everyone is to be believed, a quality driver yet LH won 11 races. I think that shows his quality.

The argument about who is best/better/worse is pointless. There is no way to judge, except when drivers are in the same car and treated the same.

In a sport that is the epitome of a team event, drivers are only one part. We can say that Alonso was let down by a poor car, but then he has input into its design, handling and set-up.

So the Vettel era proves nothing about who is the best driver. It showed, however, that Vettel was better than Webber. With Daniel's showing of this season then I have to consider that I over-rated him. But then, DR might be the new Senna. We don't know.

[FourWheelDrift]

toppstuff said:

One of the most interesting things about 2015 will be seeing just how well he does at Ferrari.

Compared to Alonso this year Raikkonen has been terrible. But he took a long time to be happy at Lotus, then he started winning races. People will forget that and if Raikkonen gets his act together in a Ferrari next year and beats Vettel people will only remember Alonso beating Raikkonen and consider Vettel as not that impressive as his 4 WDCs suggest. Additionally generating more questions about the Red Bull's legality during those years.

[Bonefish Blues]

Derek Smith said:

So the Vettel era proves nothing about who is the best driver. It showed, however, that Vettel was better than Webber. With Daniel's showing of this season then I have to consider that I over-rated him. But then, DR might be the new Senna. We don't know.

I'm not even sure we can be certain about your first statement tbh.

[Scuffers]

FourWheelDrift said:

toppstuff said:

One of the most interesting things about 2015 will be seeing just how well he does at Ferrari.

Compared to Alonso this year Raikkonen has been terrible. But he took a long time to be happy at Lotus, then he started winning races. People will forget that and if Raikkonen gets his act together in a Ferrari next year and beats Vettel people will only remember Alonso beating Raikkonen and consider Vettel as not that impressive as his 4 WDCs suggest. Additionally generating more questions about the Red Bull's legality during those years.

it's going to be interesting, my take on Kimi is that the car is just not right for him (very much built round Alonso), and I think Vettel will have the same problems.

give Kimi a car he can drive, and he's as good as any of them IMHO, BUT if the cars not 100% how he likes it, then he goes to sleep.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Bonefish Blues said:

Derek Smith said:

So the Vettel era proves nothing about who is the best driver. It showed, however, that Vettel was better than Webber. With Daniel's showing of this season then I have to consider that I over-rated him. But then, DR might be the new Senna. We don't know.

I'm not even sure we can be certain about your first statement tbh.

We can't. And it's one of the reasons I find it grating when people suggest that Webber was in any way rubbish. SV was clearly the faster driver, but that would appear to be because he was the best at exploiting the blown diffuser. No one knows what the situation would have been like this year if MW had stayed on at the team. For all we know he could have had the same degree of success as DR has compared to SV.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Swervin_Mervin said:

We can't. And it's one of the reasons I find it grating when people suggest that Webber was in any way rubbish. SV was clearly the faster driver, but that would appear to be because he was the best at exploiting the blown diffuser. No one knows what the situation would have been like this year if MW had stayed on at the team. For all we know he could have had the same degree of success as DR has compared to SV.

It was a real shame we didn't get to find out, I rate MW. But on the bright side we did get DR who was a real revelation in the RB this year.

[Dr Z]

It is really suprising to hear that people consider Vettel's 2010 title was the most worthy one. In my view, his most deserved titles are 2012>2011>2013>2010 in that order. 2012, because of the chaos wrought about by the Pirelli tyre situation, which even extended to last year. 2010, because his performances were very ragged at many points, blighted by collisions with team mate and kind of all over the place.

Agreed that RB really pushed at the latter half of last year when the rest of the field were diverting to this year. However, all great drivers ram home the advantage when they have a dominant car, and destroy the field, which is what Vettel did in 2011 and to some extent in 2013. For sure, he's not the complete package (yet), however, I doubt there's any other 'top' pilot in the current field that does not have a in the armour.

toppstuff said:

<snip>I think the big issue for me is that Vettels performance in 2014 really illustrates how dominant the Red Bull team were in using the blown diffuser. No-one in the world new how to drive that kind of car better than Vettel.

Without that tech, he looks like a very good driver, rather than an exceptional one.

One of the most interesting things about 2015 will be seeing just how well he does at Ferrari.

Sure, Vettel was the master of the blown diffuser and RB probably had the best implementation/integrated one on their cars in that era, but that does not take away anything from his ability. Any more than the fact that Hamilton's driving style enabling him to use much less fuel than Rosberg (and hence giving him an advantage over his team mate), makes Hamilton a less worthy WDC this year.

I hope he proves people wrong by winning a title with Ferrari.

/Seb fan

[Jonsnow606]

Lewis had an advantage over his team mate this season because he was QUICKER than his team mate, not because he used 0.5 less litre of fuel over the course of each race.

Just like Ricciardo bum fked Seb throughout the season.

His at best a top 5 drivers on the grid currently, hardly 4 time wdc material.

I wouldnt be holding my breath expecting seb getting into a top 3 position, let alone getting anywhere near winning the damn thing in the next few years.

Dr Z said:

It is really suprising to hear that people consider Vettel's 2010 title was the most worthy one. In my view, his most deserved titles are 2012>2011>2013>2010 in that order. 2012, because of the chaos wrought about by the Pirelli tyre situation, which even extended to last year. 2010, because his performances were very ragged at many points, blighted by collisions with team mate and kind of all over the place.

Agreed that RB really pushed at the latter half of last year when the rest of the field were diverting to this year. However, all great drivers ram home the advantage when they have a dominant car, and destroy the field, which is what Vettel did in 2011 and to some extent in 2013. For sure, he's not the complete package (yet), however, I doubt there's any other 'top' pilot in the current field that does not have a in the armour.

toppstuff said:

<snip>I think the big issue for me is that Vettels performance in 2014 really illustrates how dominant the Red Bull team were in using the blown diffuser. No-one in the world new how to drive that kind of car better than Vettel.

Without that tech, he looks like a very good driver, rather than an exceptional one.

One of the most interesting things about 2015 will be seeing just how well he does at Ferrari.

Sure, Vettel was the master of the blown diffuser and RB probably had the best implementation/integrated one on their cars in that era, but that does not take away anything from his ability. Any more than the fact that Hamilton's driving style enabling him to use much less fuel than Rosberg (and hence giving him an advantage over his team mate), makes Hamilton a less worthy WDC this year.

I hope he proves people wrong by winning a title with Ferrari.

/Seb fan

Edited by Jonsnow606 on Tuesday 25th November 22:42

Edited by Jonsnow606 on Tuesday 25th November 22:44