Rosberg vs. Schumacher 2010-2012

[VladD]

LDN said:

It's said that Rosberg sets his car up for quali and Lewis moreso, with race pace in mind and that does explain somewhat; how things have played out this year.

I had a discussion with someone recently about this. We pondered that maybe Nico, realising that Lewis was generally quicker in the race, set his car up for qualifying, hoping that he could get in the lead of the race and retain it/fend off Lewis. If he had set his car up for the race, there was always the probability that Lewis would get pole and disappear into the distance, and so the first scenario was the lesser of the two evils.

[RYH64E]

LDN said:

RYH64E said:

entropy said:

Personally I'd put Nico with Button and Kimi (and perhaps Vettel now): not quite great enough to belong at the apex with Alonso and Hamilton. The consistency to reach those levels isn't quite there and Lewis getting twice as more wins bears this out IMO.

And yet Button scored more points than Hamilton in their McLaren years.

... yes yes; Jenson is as good as Lewis ... lets trot that line out. That's why Jenson is 'almost' done in F1 and Lewis has another how many years. Jenson kept Lewis honest and I hope JB stays in F1 but; lets be frank; he's not on the same level. When all is well; he's up there but he's no Alonso / Hamilton. Jenson admitted some months ago; talking about his time with Lewis that Lewis is the faster driver - but he felt that he had more of a handle on managing the car. This edge he had is no more; as Lewis has proven this year that he manages both tyres and fuel better than his team-mate.

Not knocking JB.

For what it's worth I don't rate either of them, Alonso is the best of the current drivers imo, the rest of the drivers are pretty equal.

[paulguitar]

RYH64E said:

And yet Button scored more points than Hamilton in their McLaren years.

I always laugh when I read people saying this. I am a great admirer of JB, a truly superb all-round F1 driver, but during the time they were at McLaren, Lewis was miles ahead, most of the time. The WDC in not measured over three years, it is done once per year, and therefore Lewis won that battle 2-1. In addition to that, he would have anyway scored more points in the three years had he not been taken out of the lead by Hulkenberg at the last race in Brazil.


As to the original post, it is a very interesting subject. My feeling is that Rosberg is and was better than most people realized. Hamilton was able to at least match Alonso in his rookie year, and is better now, so I would put Lewis in a position as the best driver in F1 at the moment. Alonso is brilliant, and Riciardo loos rather promising too.........




I suspect Schumacher was a little way off his best during his comeback, but still at a very high level. I always admired him for giving it another go, and liked him much more during his second F1 career, aside from nearly putting Rubens into the wall..............

[foreright]

IMO when you get to the top of any sport it becomes less about ability and technique (as obviously EVERYONE is "good") and more about drive (no pun intended), determination and mental strength / ability to perform under pressure.

It's clear that Lewis had Nico well and trued psyched out this year and that is the difference between them I believe.

Now obviously those two have the best car by some margin so we couldn't say that Lewis is better than Alonso on the strength of this year's championship but the point still stands between those two

[LDN]

RYH64E said:

LDN said:

RYH64E said:

entropy said:

Personally I'd put Nico with Button and Kimi (and perhaps Vettel now): not quite great enough to belong at the apex with Alonso and Hamilton. The consistency to reach those levels isn't quite there and Lewis getting twice as more wins bears this out IMO.

And yet Button scored more points than Hamilton in their McLaren years.

... yes yes; Jenson is as good as Lewis ... lets trot that line out. That's why Jenson is 'almost' done in F1 and Lewis has another how many years. Jenson kept Lewis honest and I hope JB stays in F1 but; lets be frank; he's not on the same level. When all is well; he's up there but he's no Alonso / Hamilton. Jenson admitted some months ago; talking about his time with Lewis that Lewis is the faster driver - but he felt that he had more of a handle on managing the car. This edge he had is no more; as Lewis has proven this year that he manages both tyres and fuel better than his team-mate.

Not knocking JB.

For what it's worth I don't rate either of them, Alonso is the best of the current drivers imo, the rest of the drivers are pretty equal.

Fair enough... but I can't see how the rest are equal. i.e: Alonso is king and the rest are also rans. Remember, Alonso himself said that Lewis is the fastest driver he's ever been paired with; as has Button. The pattern emerges that Lewis is indeed; perhaps the fastest man in F1. Add to that a new, evolved, maturity in managing the car; and he may well even edge the main man, Alonso.

One poster mentioned Ricciardio... and I agree; I think this season; we witnessed something special; getting that Red Bull a lot higher than it should have been - and he's shown nigh on every weekend - top class overtakes and judgement. I think that his performance has rattled Vettel to the core; I honestly do. I may be wrong but I think Ferrari have many more years in the wilderness. They gave up Alonso for Vettel; I see that as a bad move, in general terms but I may be wrong.

For what it's worth I don't rate either of them, Alonso is the best of the current drivers imo, the rest of the drivers are pretty equal.

[entropy]

RYH64E said:

And yet Button scored more points than Hamilton in their McLaren years.

Points and statistics don't necessarily tell the whole story.

In 2012 JB kept moaning about overheating tyres yet LH was won in Canada, beat him in Spain despite being coming from the back of the grid. Or perhaps more crucially the fact that when LH retired he was in the lead and ahead of JB.

LH had his, er, 'wobble' in 2011 and the feeling was that distractions were getting the better of him and JB was knuckling down. Do you give LH the benefit of doubt as an anomoly? He's not the only one. JB was for a time taken his F1 ride at Benetton for granted and seen as a playboy or Trulli for a time having the upperhand over Alonso at Renault.

[RYH64E]

LDN said:

Fair enough... but I can't see how the rest are equal. i.e: Alonso is king and the rest are also rans. Remember, Alonso himself said that Lewis is the fastest driver he's ever been paired with; as has Button. The pattern emerges that Lewis is indeed; perhaps the fastest man in F1. Add to that a new, evolved, maturity in managing the car; and he may well even edge the main man, Alonso.

One poster mentioned Ricciardio... and I agree; I think this season; we witnessed something special; getting that Red Bull a lot higher than it should have been - and he's shown nigh on every weekend - top class overtakes and judgement. I think that his performance has rattled Vettel to the core; I honestly do. I may be wrong but I think Ferrari have many more years in the wilderness. They gave up Alonso for Vettel; I see that as a bad move, in general terms but I may be wrong.

For what it's worth I don't rate either of them, Alonso is the best of the current drivers imo, the rest of the drivers are pretty equal.

The Ricciardo phenomenom is more about car and opportunity than raw talent imo, many of the mid-field drivers (Vergne, Hulkenberg, Perez, Grosjean) could well be great if given the tools to do so, but are unlikely to get the chance. On the other hand, Hamilton has never had to traipse round in a Minardi, or a Torro Rosso, or even a Sauber, so we've never seen what he can do in a really bad car (not much is my guess).

[entropy]

RYH64E said:

On the other hand, Hamilton has never had to traipse round in a Minardi, or a Torro Rosso, or even a Sauber, so we've never seen what he can do in a really bad car (not much is my guess).

2009 McLaren was mediocre yet LH got wins that year. Or how about that year's Australian GP started outside the top ten and was on for a classified podium finish if it wasn't for lying to the stewards.

In 2012 he was winning races when JB found it impossible at times to manage tyre temperatures.

[LDN]

RYH64E said:

LDN said:

Fair enough... but I can't see how the rest are equal. i.e: Alonso is king and the rest are also rans. Remember, Alonso himself said that Lewis is the fastest driver he's ever been paired with; as has Button. The pattern emerges that Lewis is indeed; perhaps the fastest man in F1. Add to that a new, evolved, maturity in managing the car; and he may well even edge the main man, Alonso.

One poster mentioned Ricciardio... and I agree; I think this season; we witnessed something special; getting that Red Bull a lot higher than it should have been - and he's shown nigh on every weekend - top class overtakes and judgement. I think that his performance has rattled Vettel to the core; I honestly do. I may be wrong but I think Ferrari have many more years in the wilderness. They gave up Alonso for Vettel; I see that as a bad move, in general terms but I may be wrong.

For what it's worth I don't rate either of them, Alonso is the best of the current drivers imo, the rest of the drivers are pretty equal.

The Ricciardo phenomenom is more about car and opportunity than raw talent imo, many of the mid-field drivers (Vergne, Hulkenberg, Perez, Grosjean) could well be great if given the tools to do so, but are unlikely to get the chance. On the other hand, Hamilton has never had to traipse round in a Minardi, or a Torro Rosso, or even a Sauber, so we've never seen what he can do in a really bad car (not much is my guess).

Yes Lewis must be crap BECAUSE he's never been in a bad car... perhaps he's never been in a poor car because he's that good. He has been in dead equal cars though... throughout lower formulas... and won.

If he beat Alonso in his rookie year; then he'd be no good in an average car; yes that makes sense

[Clevers]

if you look at the career of Nico Rosberg in the lower formulas he has won most of the series he has entered or been very successful, so when comparing against Schumi there was a double narrowing of the gap because Rosberg was better than people realised and he was getting even better, whereas Shuey was dropping off a little with age. Rosberg has been very impressive this year, no doubt.

I still can't believe some people question or even try to debate Hamilton's credentials. The reason he has always been in a front running team is because the people who know motor racing put him there. Hamilton won pretty much every junior formula he entered and now stands as 5th in the all time list of drivers to win the most Grand Prix and holds similar status for the number of pole positions despite spending 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013 in poor or unreliable cars. Alonso regards Hamilton as the benchmark driver and McLaren still haven't confirmed their driver line up because Ron is holding out for a miracle that he might be able to tempt Lewis back.

What more is there to say.........some people can't be watching the same sport. Rosberg is obviously a very fast driver if he is able to out qualify the guy who was regarded as quickest over a single lap.

[Jimmm]

The way I have viewed Rosberg for the last few years has been he has the ability to get 100% out of the car at nearly every event but no more than 100%.

[Agent Orange]

BritishRacinGrin said:

Has Rosberg's performance this year caused any 'Second Coming of Schumacher' detractors to re-evaluate his performance at the end of his F1 career?

It's a fair point.

Prior to this year, and despite his prior F1 successes, I'd always considered Nico a decent but basically average F1 driver. Well he's proved me wrong in spades this year - at least in his ability to be fast. Not sure his race craft is of the same standard though.

But when you consider his performances against Schumacher and take into account neither were fighting for the championship it does make you look at Schumacher in a different light.

I still say Schumacher was wrong to return just that maybe it wasn't as bad as it seemed at the time because as you say we now appreciate Nico does have a certain something.

[TVR1]

However, lets not forget that the year before, when Massa had his spring episode, Schumacher was slated to step back in and help Ferrari out. The small inconvenience of a neck injury (broke his C2/3Vertebrae-hangmans break) in a motorbike off earlier that year put paid to that.

Nonetheless, he took the drive for Mercedes a year later, still recovering from a broken neck.

Rosberg was lucky that year.

Edited by TVR1 on Saturday 29th November 19:50

[TVR1]

However, lets not forget that the year before, when Massa had his spring episode, Schumacher was slated to step back in and help Ferrari out. The small inconvenience of a neck injury (broke his C2/3Vertebrae-hangmans break) in a motorbike off earlier that year put paid to that.

Nonetheless, he took the drive for Mercedes a year later, still recovering from a broken neck.

Rosberg was lucky that year.

Edited by TVR1 on Saturday 29th November 19:51

[NRS]

RYH64E said:

entropy said:

Personally I'd put Nico with Button and Kimi (and perhaps Vettel now): not quite great enough to belong at the apex with Alonso and Hamilton. The consistency to reach those levels isn't quite there and Lewis getting twice as more wins bears this out IMO.

And yet Button scored more points than Hamilton in their McLaren years.

RYH64E said:

For what it's worth I don't rate either of them, Alonso is the best of the current drivers imo, the rest of the drivers are pretty equal.

So you're saying Button is better/ as good as Hamilton due to scoring more points than Hamilton. Yet Alonso is better than Hamilton, despite being outscored by him as teammates? How does that work?

I think you do have a point that there are many drivers out there who could do very well in a top car. However I disagree that someone like Alonso/ Hamilton is not better than the rest. You can see Rosberg has done well, yet Hamilton dominated him in the wins. There's a tiny and yet huge difference between the "almost good enough" and the best.

I think the biggest difference between many drivers though is due to their driving style. Vettel dominated with the downforce working, yet has been trashed without it this season. And that's why Hamilton and Alonso tend to be some of the best - they are more adaptable and so more consistent over time compared to other drivers.

[Jonsnow606]

All said and done, The last paragraph sums it up perfectly.

NRS said:

So you're saying Button is better/ as good as Hamilton due to scoring more points than Hamilton. Yet Alonso is better than Hamilton, despite being outscored by him as teammates? How does that work?

I think you do have a point that there are many drivers out there who could do very well in a top car. However I disagree that someone like Alonso/ Hamilton is not better than the rest. You can see Rosberg has done well, yet Hamilton dominated him in the wins. There's a tiny and yet huge difference between the "almost good enough" and the best.

I think the biggest difference between many drivers though is due to their driving style. Vettel dominated with the downforce working, yet has been trashed without it this season. And that's why Hamilton and Alonso tend to be some of the best - they are more adaptable and so more consistent over time compared to other drivers.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

RYH64E said:

BritishRacinGrin said:

This year Rosberg has run a very close fight with a driver who is arguably the best on the grid, or at the very least 'right up there'.

This year Rosberg came second in a two horse race.

You can't come to any conclusions about the ability of either Rosberg or Hamilton following a season where their car advantage was such that Maldonado and Chilton would have finished first and second had they been driving for Mercedes.

I agree with the first point. Take a look at how many races each guy won.

All in all I see Rosberg as someone who got in the right place at the right time

[tight fart]

Have any of you sat on the grid waiting for the flag to drop, or are you all armchair enthusiast?

[kiseca]

RYH64E said:

For what it's worth I don't rate either of them, Alonso is the best of the current drivers imo, the rest of the drivers are pretty equal.

Throughout this thread you seem to have a very good memory of Button vs Hamilton at McLaren but have completely forgotten about Hamilton vs Alonso?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

tight fart said:

Have any of you sat on the grid waiting for the flag to drop, or are you all armchair enthusiast?

Armchair enthusiast, your point being?