Rosberg vs. Schumacher 2010-2012
Discussion
I think Rosberg is the real deal, but I also think Schumacher was past it, just because things move on so quickly in F1. FWIW, Hamilton rates Rosberg very highly.
tight fart said:
Have any of you sat on the grid waiting for the flag to drop, or are you all armchair enthusiast?
One post a month over 12 years ... This one not worth waiting for. To clarify, PH registration does not yet require a super-licence. It's an interesting post. They say that F1 is IF backwards, and this is one of the most intriguing,and saddest, ifs.
If Schumacher had stayed on for 2013 and 2014, he'd have had a car capable of wins in one season and championships this year. He'd have probably had a contract that prohibited him from pastimes such as skiing.
We would certainly be toasting a race winning Schumi,nearly a quarter of a century after his first win, and it would have been fascinating to see how his ruthlessness and mind games would have played out in a championship battle with Rosberg.
If...
If Schumacher had stayed on for 2013 and 2014, he'd have had a car capable of wins in one season and championships this year. He'd have probably had a contract that prohibited him from pastimes such as skiing.
We would certainly be toasting a race winning Schumi,nearly a quarter of a century after his first win, and it would have been fascinating to see how his ruthlessness and mind games would have played out in a championship battle with Rosberg.
If...
hairyben said:
Problem with schumachers high-priest-lord-of-F1 record status is and always will be, who was the previous most worthy teammate he ever *actually* had to duel? Brundle in 92?
And yet, the drivers who did share a grid with him seem to be the ones most likely to acknowledge him as a driver of exceptional skill.Jimmm said:
The way I have viewed Rosberg for the last few years has been he has the ability to get 100% out of the car at nearly every event but no more than 100%.
Anyone who says you get get more than 100% out of anything doesn't understand percentages. It's become a common thing to say, no wonder kids come out of school with no idea. 
Nico has proven to be a faster driver than I thought he was capable of becoming, but he is not a racer of the calibre of Schumacher in his prime, Hamilton, Alonso etc. In a straight fight it will be rare that he will come out on top if all things are equal. That's nothing to be ashamed off, he is very talented, but he doesn't have that special something that makes the difference.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 30th November 17:50
tight fart said:
Have any of you sat on the grid waiting for the flag to drop, or are you all armchair enthusiast?
Have you not read your competitor's MSA blue book recently? Races are more often started with the red lights on the overhead gantry going out, wouldn't you agree- maybe you're an armchair enthusiast? Edited by BritishRacinGrin on Monday 1st December 09:37
jsf said:
Anyone who says you get get more than 100% out of anything doesn't understand percentages. It's become a common thing to say, no wonder kids come out of school with no idea.
Nico has proven to be a faster driver than I thought he was capable of becoming, but he is not a racer of the calibre of Schumacher in his prime, Hamilton, Alonso etc. In a straight fight it will be rare that he will come out on top if all things are equal. That's nothing to be ashamed off, he is very talented, but he doesn't have that special something that makes the difference.
What I was trying to say (but poorly phrased) is that say for example the car makes up 90% of the package Nico will always get 100% out of the car. Where Hamilton may not end up getting 100% out of the car he will usually make up for it with his driving I think Nico lacks that final percent to give him the edge over a Hamilton or an Alonso.Nico has proven to be a faster driver than I thought he was capable of becoming, but he is not a racer of the calibre of Schumacher in his prime, Hamilton, Alonso etc. In a straight fight it will be rare that he will come out on top if all things are equal. That's nothing to be ashamed off, he is very talented, but he doesn't have that special something that makes the difference.
Edited by jsf on Sunday 30th November 17:50
hora said:
Nico (to me) is like Eddie Irvine, David Coulthard or dare I say it? Massa.
A good driver but not a great driver.
Lewis has that bit extra that makes a champion. None of the above were or will be.
Not being rude to Jenson Button but the master stroke of hiding the double-diffuser by Brawn from the rest of the teams tech group was brilliant. Funnily as that season developed Jenson slipped and slipped as everyone else started to catch up.
Nico was part of Mercedes, he was part of that cars development not the new kid. Yet Lewis beat him whenever they went wheel to wheel, had the guts to say 'no' when he was told to mover over and won on the day. Nico forever would have been called the lucky Champion like his Dad. Whereas Lewis is the racers racer.
I agree with you about Irvine, Coulthard, Massa and Button, I'm just not so sure about Hamilton. All he had to do this season was beat his team mate, which he did but not by a huge margin. Rosberg was faster in qualifying and was leading the championship for a large part of the season, but yes, Hamilton is the better racer of the two. So better than Rosberg, but what does that say about his absolute ability? Not much imo because Rosberg isn't one of the greats either. If we compare Hamilton to Button during their time at McLaren there wasn't much in it, and I agree with you that Jenson is good but not great as well. We could go back to the Hamilton/Alonso year at McLaren, but that was so long ago and there were so many other factors that season that I'm not sure it's a reliable guide. A good driver but not a great driver.
Lewis has that bit extra that makes a champion. None of the above were or will be.
Not being rude to Jenson Button but the master stroke of hiding the double-diffuser by Brawn from the rest of the teams tech group was brilliant. Funnily as that season developed Jenson slipped and slipped as everyone else started to catch up.
Nico was part of Mercedes, he was part of that cars development not the new kid. Yet Lewis beat him whenever they went wheel to wheel, had the guts to say 'no' when he was told to mover over and won on the day. Nico forever would have been called the lucky Champion like his Dad. Whereas Lewis is the racers racer.
If we look at Alonso's performance in recent years he's completely dominated his team mate, including the highly rated Raikkonen this year, I don't see that level of dominance from Hamilton, he's a bit better than Rosberg and maybe a bit better than Button (or maybe not) but that's all. Schumacher, another great imo, did the same to his team mates, completely dominated them. Senna was far faster than all his team mates except Prost, but Prost was another great. I just don't see hamilton in the same league as Schumacher, Senna, Prost, or even Alonso.
Edited by RYH64E on Monday 1st December 12:47
RYH64E said:
hora said:
Nico (to me) is like Eddie Irvine, David Coulthard or dare I say it? Massa.
A good driver but not a great driver.
Lewis has that bit extra that makes a champion. None of the above were or will be.
Not being rude to Jenson Button but the master stroke of hiding the double-diffuser by Brawn from the rest of the teams tech group was brilliant. Funnily as that season developed Jenson slipped and slipped as everyone else started to catch up.
Nico was part of Mercedes, he was part of that cars development not the new kid. Yet Lewis beat him whenever they went wheel to wheel, had the guts to say 'no' when he was told to mover over and won on the day. Nico forever would have been called the lucky Champion like his Dad. Whereas Lewis is the racers racer.
I agree with you about Irvine, Coulthard, Massa and Button, I'm just not so sure about Hamilton. All he had to do this season was beat his team mate, which he did but not by a huge margin. Rosberg was faster in qualifying and was leading the championship for a large part of the season, but yes, Hamilton is the better racer of the two. So better than Rosberg, but what does that say about his absolute ability? Not much imo because Rosberg isn't one of the greats either. If we compare Hamilton to Button during their time at McLaren there wasn't much in it, and I agree with you that Jenson is good but not great as well. We could go back to the Hamilton/Alonso year at McLaren, but that was so long ago and there were so many other factors that season that I'm not sure it's a reliable guide. A good driver but not a great driver.
Lewis has that bit extra that makes a champion. None of the above were or will be.
Not being rude to Jenson Button but the master stroke of hiding the double-diffuser by Brawn from the rest of the teams tech group was brilliant. Funnily as that season developed Jenson slipped and slipped as everyone else started to catch up.
Nico was part of Mercedes, he was part of that cars development not the new kid. Yet Lewis beat him whenever they went wheel to wheel, had the guts to say 'no' when he was told to mover over and won on the day. Nico forever would have been called the lucky Champion like his Dad. Whereas Lewis is the racers racer.
If we look at Alonso's performance in recent years he's completely dominated his team mate, including the highly rated Raikkonen this year, I don't see that level of dominance from Hamilton, he's a bit better than Rosberg and maybe a bit better than Button (or maybe not) but that's all. Schumacher, another great imo, did the same to his team mates, completely dominated them. Senna was far faster than all his team mates except Prost, but Prost was another great. I just don't see hamilton in the same league as Schumacher, Senna, Prost, or even Alonso.
Edited by RYH64E on Monday 1st December 12:47
Classic.If we discount years up to the Hamilton Alonso partnership because they are too old then Hamilton is leading Button in world championship titles by 2-1, and is beating Alonso by 2-0.
I don't see why 2007 is any less relevant than any other year though. That only makes sense to me if you're looking for ways to get to a preditermined conclusion that Hamilton is not all that special.
I think he dominated Nico this season, Nico was in the hunt because of his consistency in the first half, a bit like how Lauda beat Prost in 1994, but inthe second half of the season (I took it from race 10) Hamilton got 6 wins to Nico's 2, and 198 points to Nico's 152 - and that'swithout awarding double points in the last race. He was playing catchup from race 1 and just kept plugging away, did what a real champoin would do and got stronger as the task got harder, as opposed to Nico who may have started like Lauda but sure didn't finish like him! He seemed to crumble a bit and he really impressed me how he pulled it back to win in Brazil.
I don't see why 2007 is any less relevant than any other year though. That only makes sense to me if you're looking for ways to get to a preditermined conclusion that Hamilton is not all that special.
I think he dominated Nico this season, Nico was in the hunt because of his consistency in the first half, a bit like how Lauda beat Prost in 1994, but inthe second half of the season (I took it from race 10) Hamilton got 6 wins to Nico's 2, and 198 points to Nico's 152 - and that'swithout awarding double points in the last race. He was playing catchup from race 1 and just kept plugging away, did what a real champoin would do and got stronger as the task got harder, as opposed to Nico who may have started like Lauda but sure didn't finish like him! He seemed to crumble a bit and he really impressed me how he pulled it back to win in Brazil.
Edited by kiseca on Monday 1st December 13:28
'I don't see why 2007 is any less relevant than any other year though. That only makes sense to me if you're looking for ways to get to a preditermined conclusion that Hamilton is not all that special.'
This is a very wise statement. Quite how some people are STILL managing not to give Hamilton the credit he deserves is becoming a subject of genuine amusement. So, Hamilton beats Alonso in his rookie year, and yet somehow this doesn't count? Utterly baffling.
This is a very wise statement. Quite how some people are STILL managing not to give Hamilton the credit he deserves is becoming a subject of genuine amusement. So, Hamilton beats Alonso in his rookie year, and yet somehow this doesn't count? Utterly baffling.
RYH64E said:
If we look at Alonso's performance in recent years he's completely dominated his team mate, including the highly rated Raikkonen this year, I don't see that level of dominance from Hamilton, he's a bit better than Rosberg and maybe a bit better than Button (or maybe not) but that's all. Schumacher, another great imo, did the same to his team mates, completely dominated them. Senna was far faster than all his team mates except Prost, but Prost was another great. I just don't see hamilton in the same league as Schumacher, Senna, Prost, or even Alonso.
Ferrari haven't made great cars over the years and at best challenge for WDC. What that means that whatever faults drivers have in getting the best from the car is shown up more.Edited by RYH64E on Monday 1st December 12:47
Take Kimi - he was winning at Lotus when the car/package was to his liking but his form dipped last year with the change to harder tyre construction and he was struggling with turn-in. This year has been similar at Ferrari because the car is mediocre whereas Alonso has seemingly struggled less and is regarded as overachieved.
As good as LH is I think Nico deserves respect for keeping LH honest.
Great/greatness is an overused word. JB is not a great driver but he is certainly more than a number 2 driver and I would put Nico in that category.
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