Button v Alonso

[Catatafish]

suffolk009 said:

I hope that is the case. I don't understand why people expect Honda to perform badly out of the box.

In the PH tradition of predictions, I think by the end of season the uppity Spaniard will best Button on Qualifying and Podiums, but Button will have more points.

It could be a weird rerun of brawn's dominance but with Honda on board this time, literally. If not, the moaning will be unprecedented...

Anyway, someone's ass hole must be violently torn to satisfy ph (F1 hyperbole translation: win a handful more points over a season) and button needs a team mate to DNF more than him to avoid ass hole destruction. Alonso is very good at finishing races.

[Andy M]

I'm happy that Button has stayed in F1, but I don't think he stands a chance against Alonso.

While I don't think Button will fare quite as badly as Kimi has versus Alonso (in equal machinery), and there will be some races where they will finish close to one another, but over the season I think Alonso will easily have the measure of Jenson.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is Jenson's final season in F1.

[Harvey Mushman00]

lbc said:

"Fernando is faster than you" will probably be next years most common radio message.

We will find out next year if Button is actually any good as a race driver.

Seriously?? Are you for real?? We will find out next year if Button is actually any good as a racing driver? Compared to who?, you? ,me? 99% of racing drivers currently competing........................??????

[matt frost]

Andy M said:

I'm happy that Button has stayed in F1, but I don't think he stands a chance against Alonso.

While I don't think Button will fare quite as badly as Kimi has versus Alonso (in equal machinery), and there will be some races where they will finish close to one another, but over the season I think Alonso will easily have the measure of Jenson.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is Jenson's final season in F1.

I'd have to agree. I do think against most, Jenson would come out on top, he's easily one of the best in F1 but against the best like Alonso and Lewis he isn't quite there and he'll struggle over the season. Regardless of what points say, anyone who watched each race...he was there to match and better LH on the odd weekend, but lucky rain/pit gambles, reliability and bad luck aside he was completely outdriven by Lewis in their time together (in marginal F1 terms that is - there's never much between drivers at that level).

I'm fascinated to watch it though, it'll be the most fascinating team mate battle to watch at the first race i'm sure.

[Smollet]

matt frost said:

I'd have to agree. I do think against most, Jenson would come out on top, he's easily one of the best in F1 but against the best like Alonso and Lewis he isn't quite there and he'll struggle over the season. Regardless of what points say, anyone who watched each race...he was there to match and better LH on the odd weekend, but lucky rain/pit gambles, reliability and bad luck aside he was completely outdriven by Lewis in their time together (in marginal F1 terms that is - there's never much between drivers at that level).

I'm fascinated to watch it though, it'll be the most fascinating team mate battle to watch at the first race i'm sure.

Didn't JB outscore Lewis in the three seasons they were together?

[deltaevo16]

Smollet said:

matt frost said:

I'd have to agree. I do think against most, Jenson would come out on top, he's easily one of the best in F1 but against the best like Alonso and Lewis he isn't quite there and he'll struggle over the season. Regardless of what points say, anyone who watched each race...he was there to match and better LH on the odd weekend, but lucky rain/pit gambles, reliability and bad luck aside he was completely outdriven by Lewis in their time together (in marginal F1 terms that is - there's never much between drivers at that level).

I'm fascinated to watch it though, it'll be the most fascinating team mate battle to watch at the first race i'm sure.

Didn't JB outscore Lewis in the three seasons they were together?

Ssshhhh, you know scoring points counts for FA, PH fanboys always assume that getting the pole, or how racy you are, are the most important measures of someones ability. As to being outdriven by LH by what measure? I'm a fan of both by the way.

Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25

Hardly outdriven. I relish the prospect of JB and Alonso getting it on, as much as LH and NR, its going to be quite a season. I just hope that the new Honda partnership delivers a front running car, along with an uber fast Williams and Red Bull, We should see some epic battles.

[Catatafish]

deltaevo16 said:

Ssshhhh, you know scoring points counts for FA, PH fanboys always assume that getting the pole, or how racy you are, are the most important measures of someones ability. As to being outdriven by LH by what measure? I'm a fan of both by the way.

Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25

Hardly outdriven. I relish the prospect of JB and Alonso getting it on, as much as LH and NR, its going to be quite a season. I just hope that the new Honda partnership delivers a front running car, along with an uber fast Williams and Red Bull, We should see some epic battles.

You forgot the other stuff

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

[thegreenhell]

^^ So overall very close then? You certainly couldn't say that either driver dominated or got torn a new one. Fans of either may pick and choose whichever specific stats support their view, but overall they were very evenly matched.

[entropy]

Catatafish said:

You forgot the other stuff

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

What the stats don't say is that in 2012 LH retired from leading, or that JB has a problem with 'switching on the tyres' and maintaining the tyre temps at its narrow windows.

[deltaevo16]

Catatafish said:

deltaevo16 said:

Ssshhhh, you know scoring points counts for FA, PH fanboys always assume that getting the pole, or how racy you are, are the most important measures of someones ability. As to being outdriven by LH by what measure? I'm a fan of both by the way.

Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25

Hardly outdriven. I relish the prospect of JB and Alonso getting it on, as much as LH and NR, its going to be quite a season. I just hope that the new Honda partnership delivers a front running car, along with an uber fast Williams and Red Bull, We should see some epic battles.

You forgot the other stuff

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Based on the ridiculous comments on this forum that JB would be destroyed by Hamilton, the stats hardly back up that claim. No denying LH can pedal a car quicker than most, but given this blindness that seems to afflict folks on here when it comes to Lewis's driving ability.

When it comes to the end of the season, its always a different story. Rosberg and Lewis were equallly matched, each having their share of bad luck. It was close and produced a nail biter. I want that for next season but with hopefully more drivers in the mix.

[VolvoT5]

thegreenhell said:

^^ So overall very close then? You certainly couldn't say that either driver dominated or got torn a new one. Fans of either may pick and choose whichever specific stats support their view, but overall they were very evenly matched.

Well very close but Hamilton had the edge it seems. I imagine most team bosses would pick Hamilton or Alonso over Button. Especially as Hamilton has probably got better since 2011/12 and Button is probably past his peak. And I say that as someone who likes Button and really quite dislikes Lewis Hamilton.

But if the salary demands were 8 mill vs 25 mill.... well... it would be hard to justify that extra 17 million for the performance difference.

[Jerry Can]

Button needs a known quantity (aka a World Champ) in the other car to get the best out of him. He raised his game against LH and dropped it back a bit against KM and SP. He was marginally shaded by LH overall, and will possibly be marginally shaded by FA. But to come out of a career with a world championship, 15 ( possibly more) wins and if he is able able to hold his head up high against the two fastest/best drivers in F1; merely cements your place as a top drawer driver - there are no flies on him.

[thegreenhell]

Jerry Can said:

Button needs a known quantity (aka a World Champ) in the other car to get the best out of him. He raised his game against LH and dropped it back a bit against KM and SP.

He soundly beat both Perez and Magnussen, so I'm not sure what else he was supposed to do there. He dropped back in the WDC relative to the Hamilton years, but that's largely because McLaren produced a couple of dogs for him to drive.

[NewMetalSystem]

thegreenhell said:

Jerry Can said:

Button needs a known quantity (aka a World Champ) in the other car to get the best out of him. He raised his game against LH and dropped it back a bit against KM and SP.

He soundly beat both Perez and Magnussen, so I'm not sure what else he was supposed to do there. He dropped back in the WDC relative to the Hamilton years, but that's largely because McLaren produced a couple of dogs for him to drive.

Jenson has to have confidence in the car, and one way he gets this is by knowing what the car's true potential is. If his team-mate can get everything out of the car, then he knows that if he's half a second down it's his fault and not the cars, and so he finds the extra time within himself. If his team-mate is off the pace then he isn't aware of how fast it can go, and so in Jenson's mind the car's potential is however fast he can drive it.

Think about it - McLaren won the last race in 2012, and couldn't get on the podium in 2013. I'm not saying they didn't go backwards, but to be that far off the pace, with no major rule changes, is hard to give credit to.

[thegreenhell]

NewMetalSystem said:

Jenson has to have confidence in the car, and one way he gets this is by knowing what the car's true potential is. If his team-mate can get everything out of the car, then he knows that if he's half a second down it's his fault and not the cars, and so he finds the extra time within himself. If his team-mate is off the pace then he isn't aware of how fast it can go, and so in Jenson's mind the car's potential is however fast he can drive it.

So you're suggesting that JB can only go as fast as his teammate, and no faster? And that his teammates since Hamilton are that much slower?

NewMetalSystem said:

Think about it - McLaren won the last race in 2012, and couldn't get on the podium in 2013. I'm not saying they didn't go backwards, but to be that far off the pace, with no major rule changes, is hard to give credit to.

Perez scored many more points in both the 2012 Sauber and 2014 Force India than he could manage in the 2013 McLaren, despite a perfect finishing record in the McLaren and multiple retirements in the other two seasons. He had several podiums in the others but a highest finish of only 5th in the McLaren. I think that says a lot for the relative performance of the 2013 McLaren.

[NewMetalSystem]

thegreenhell said:

So you're suggesting that JB can only go as fast as his teammate, and no faster?

No, I'm suggesting that JB doesn't always get the best out of the car, whereas drivers like Hamilton and Alonso do. I think Jenson's an exceptionally skilled driver, but I've always questioned his mentality. His head drops too quickly if he can't get the right set-up or if he doesn't feel like the car is there and his lap times fade away. If he has a team-mate who is also struggling, like Perez or Magnussen, then it becomes ingrained in his head that the car is off the pace. But he could never do that at McLaren because more often than not Lewis was fighting for pole position and proving that the speed was there.

thegreenhell said:

And that his teammates since Hamilton are that much slower?

Yes.

thegreenhell said:

Perez scored many more points in both the 2012 Sauber and 2014 Force India than he could manage in the 2013 McLaren, despite a perfect finishing record in the McLaren and multiple retirements in the other two seasons. He had several podiums in the others but a highest finish of only 5th in the McLaren. I think that says a lot for the relative performance of the 2013 McLaren.

There could be a number of reasons for that though. He was in a new team with greater expectations and he struggled to win over the garage (Whitmarsh's decision to retain Perez for 2014 was what allowed Ron to pounce. All the mechanics wanted Magnussen and Ron delivered).

[Catatafish]

Whitmarsh always struck me as a bit "caught in the head lights" He always seemed well out of his depth, not really saying anything insightful or inspirational. I wonder if that permeated maclaren somewhat during those years.