Bernie. Engines. Again.

[Some Gump]

Edit - in season engine dev? Welcome back, f1 ! !

Yes, does hurt honda. Their fault for being fasionably late tho.

Edited by Some Gump on Saturday 3rd January 22:29

[hornetrider]

So the FIA have just fked Honda it seems. Hardly 'fair and equitable'

Allowing development will just raise costs for everyone but given Merc can develop too I don't see their dominance being challenged.

[thegreenhell]

Another way to look at it is that Honda have had an extra year of unrestricted development time compared to the others, while watching and taking notes from the sidelines. I don't know when Honda made the decision to re-enter F1, but it isn't the work of a moment. If they've done their due diligence then they will have known the rules well in advance, seen the potential pitfalls, and will have factored all of this into their plan. It's not like Ron just went to them at the start of 2014 and asked them to build him an engine for the following year.

The only thing that has changed is the timeframe in which the existing manufacturers can develop and implement their limited allowable modifications for 2015.

[b0rk]

If the number of credits remains fixed then surely "in season" development is moot unless as a manufacturer your upgraded PU isn't ready or wasn't going to be ready for the previous asumed re-homologation date.

Reading the "loophole" it appears that this is based on the re-homologation date not having been specified however I can't see anything in the regulations regarding multiple homologations so is safe the assume each manufacturer only gets once chance to spend all 32 credits? Thus a manufacturer couldn't introduce a 2015v1, v2, v3 specification unit incrementally spending credits on the way. Or can an un-homologated PU be reaced, if so why bother with homologation in the first place?


TBH if it is a single shot re-homologation then the loophole looks like a massive win for Mercedes powered teams assuming that Merc have 2015 specification unit ready for Melbourne.

[EskimoArapaho]

hornetrider said:

So the FIA have just fked Honda it seems.

Substitute 'McLaren' for 'Honda' and it becomes deja vu all over again.

[Some Gump]

Bork, that was the way i thought it'd work - i.e 1 spec change and that was that.

However, autosport's article says that they have clarification from Whiting that it can be done piecemeal - i.e the 2014 engine is the homologated engine, and all changes based on credits are an addendum to that, so you coukd have as many iterations as you want, within the credit limit.

[davepoth]

thegreenhell said:

Another way to look at it is that Honda have had an extra year of unrestricted development time compared to the others, while watching and taking notes from the sidelines. I don't know when Honda made the decision to re-enter F1, but it isn't the work of a moment. If they've done their due diligence then they will have known the rules well in advance, seen the potential pitfalls, and will have factored all of this into their plan. It's not like Ron just went to them at the start of 2014 and asked them to build him an engine for the following year.

The only thing that has changed is the timeframe in which the existing manufacturers can develop and implement their limited allowable modifications for 2015.

Quite. I'm sure they had a very close look at the Mercedes engine when they were visiting MacLaren. If the 2015 Honda isn't superior to the 2014 Mercedes (which will likely put them ahead of Renault in 2015 at least, if not Ferrari) then they've screwed up, big time.

[JonRB]

davepoth said:

Quite. I'm sure they had a very close look at the Mercedes engine when they were visiting MacLaren. If the 2015 Honda isn't superior to the 2014 Mercedes (which will likely put them ahead of Renault in 2015 at least, if not Ferrari) then they've screwed up, big time.

And yet McLaren have already shown that, even with the best engine available, they can't turn in the goods. I hope they do though.

[andyps]

EskimoArapaho said:

hornetrider said:

So the FIA have just fked Honda it seems.

Substitute 'McLaren' for 'Honda' and it becomes deja vu all over again.

I also had that thought. Although Max Mosley isnt there now but maybe his legacy still affects McLaren when Ron Dennis is involved.

[andyps]

JonRB said:

And yet McLaren have already shown that, even with the best engine available, they can't turn in the goods. I hope they do though.

One thing I read which could partially explain the McLaren situation with the Mercedes engine was that they were the only team using the engine who didn't use the fuel and oil it was designed for due to contractual reasons and as a consequence started the 2014 season with a 60bhp (I think it was) deficit.

[London424]

James Allen wrote this article on the engine regs. Don't think it's been posted.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/01/arms-race-ga...

[IainT]

Derek Smith said:

That's my reading of the situation as well. The 'advantage' of the Merc engine is more to do with fundamental design basics. I don't think that can be overcome by a few tweaks of the Renault engine.

Mind you, Merc suffered with reliability to an extent last season so I would assume they would be reluctant to push to extremes.

I think that, of their tokens, they'll spend some on reliability and some on performance. This season would have been even more one-sided if they had been more reliable. A big gain (points wise) is to be had by finishing more races than 2014 - probably bigger than a power upgrade.

[Scuffers]

andyps said:

One thing I read which could partially explain the McLaren situation with the Mercedes engine was that they were the only team using the engine who didn't use the fuel and oil it was designed for due to contractual reasons and as a consequence started the 2014 season with a 60bhp (I think it was) deficit.

based on what?

Link?

[Scuffers]

IainT said:

Derek Smith said:

That's my reading of the situation as well. The 'advantage' of the Merc engine is more to do with fundamental design basics. I don't think that can be overcome by a few tweaks of the Renault engine.

Mind you, Merc suffered with reliability to an extent last season so I would assume they would be reluctant to push to extremes.

I think that, of their tokens, they'll spend some on reliability and some on performance. This season would have been even more one-sided if they had been more reliable. A big gain (points wise) is to be had by finishing more races than 2014 - probably bigger than a power upgrade.

reading the James Allen link, it's actually just a delay in when they introduce their 2015 engines.

This is a bad idea unless you are running very late with your development programme, as it means you will have to run last years spec engine up to the point you homologate the 2015 engine, so for Renault/Ferrari would mean running their st engines from last year for X races.

if they then introduce their new 2015 engine and it has reliability issues, they are going to have already lost at least 1 engine already (by running a 2014 spec one).

Also, every race they run the old engine is giving places away, even if Merc decide to delay their 2015 engine, they 2014 one was already streets ahead.

really don't get what they possibly hope to gain out of this?

[Scuffers]

Why the problem?

Makes sense not to have a fixed date, covers differences in yearly calendars and covers some running late.

I can't see any way you could argue this is an advantage?

[Some Gump]

James allan's bit and the autosport bit contradict each other.

JA: Run 2014 spec then you have 1 chance to change to 2015 spec.
AS: Run 2014 spec and update up to credit limit piecemeal as and when you see fit. Cites claridfication from Charlie Whiting.

I originally thought that JA's version was logical since the loophole is that date for homologation not set in stone, and there is a rule saying you can only have 1 homologated spec per year. However, the AS article says that the FIA would see the token based mods as being on top of the already homologated 2014 spec.

I think that's a silly interpretation, but Charlie Whiting knows a lot more than I do. As a bonus, it'll add extra sparkle to 2015 because it'll give us something more interesting to talk about than wether team x is bust yet or not.

[Scuffers]

??

Both interpretations are the same though?

You either run 2014 engine as is, then change to 2015 (within the limits of upgrade tokens), or you start the year with your 2015 engine (with upgrades still limited by tokens).

Either way, your 2015 engine can only be homologated once and within the limits of tokens.

[andyps]

Scuffers said:

andyps said:

One thing I read which could partially explain the McLaren situation with the Mercedes engine was that they were the only team using the engine who didn't use the fuel and oil it was designed for due to contractual reasons and as a consequence started the 2014 season with a 60bhp (I think it was) deficit.

based on what?

Link?

Pretty sure it was in Motorsport magazine, I don't have it to hand but will try to find it.

[Some Gump]

Scuffers said:

??

Both interpretations are the same though?

You either run 2014 engine as is, then change to 2015 (within the limits of upgrade tokens), or you start the year with your 2015 engine (with upgrades still limited by tokens).

Either way, your 2015 engine can only be homologated once and within the limits of tokens.

Autosport's article implied you could stsrt the year in 2014 spec, make a change for tace 2, another for round 4 etc etc till the tojens were used up.

F1 technical said:

It appears now that Ferrari's interpretation of the 2015 regulations has been accepted, allowing current manufacturers to spread their 32 performance development tokens across the season. As such, they can opt to stick to a proven 2014 item until a 2015 version is completely verified and developed for racing.

So thats 2 sources..

Edited by Some Gump on Monday 5th January 22:03

[andyps]

Some Gump said:

Scuffers said:

??

Both interpretations are the same though?

You either run 2014 engine as is, then change to 2015 (within the limits of upgrade tokens), or you start the year with your 2015 engine (with upgrades still limited by tokens).

Either way, your 2015 engine can only be homologated once and within the limits of tokens.

Autosport's article implied you could stsrt the year in 2014 spec, make a change for tace 2, another for round 4 etc etc till the tojens were used up.

F1 technical said:

It appears now that Ferrari's interpretation of the 2015 regulations has been accepted, allowing current manufacturers to spread their 32 performance development tokens across the season. As such, they can opt to stick to a proven 2014 item until a 2015 version is completely verified and developed for racing.

So thats 2 sources..

Edited by Some Gump on Monday 5th January 22:03

Although as James Allen's article reminds, each car is only allowed 4 engines for the season so there are only 4 chances to apply the upgrades during the season, and each manufacturer is likely to want to make the changes for all the engines supplied at the same time (and may well be contracted to do so anyway) making it logistically very difficult to do anything other than one iteration before homologating the 2015 engine.