Whats Lewis waiting for?

Whats Lewis waiting for?

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Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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belleair302 said:
Sadly very few Mercedes drivers actually know or watch F1. They are still buyers because of the history of the brand....the tag line of The Best or Nothing and the odd belief that the car, SUV, or whatever is better built or with more social pull than your BMW, Jag, Lexus, Audi etc.

Gone are the days of win on Sunday sell on Monday because F1 does not attract the fans as it did and the world of advertising has moved on. Ask most 20 somethings about a car and few have any knowledge of how they work or even the history of car brands. Ask those with money....usually those over 55, most don't watch F1 and want something different than what many manufacturers are selling via race sponsorship, participation and or engine development.
I've been to Mercedes-B World a few times and there is always a big display of F1 cars. Over the weekend they will have Sky on in a dedicated room.

F1 makes Merc different to all other manufacturers. It gives them an edge. It costs a fortune and I wonder if they are getting value for money, but then their bean-counters are probably the ones better placed to decide that. £30m for the WDC in their car? Cheap at the price. Who else is as recognisable around the world? Button in Japan and various other drivers in their own countries. But LH is big.

I think Merc ran last season to perfection. Even at the last race, the WDC wasn't known until NR's car went bang. Whilst this might normally be a black mark against a manufacturer, rumours abound about it being deliberate.

Merc are talked about in a way other manufacturers are not. They got it right.

The bit about over 55s. I go to various events with a group of mates. Two own Mercs: B-class, C-class and me in my CLK. We are all comfortably over 55. The demographic for F1 spectators is worryingly old.


b0rk

2,289 posts

145 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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PapaJohns said:
I'm sure I read somewhere maybe the F1 mag that Alonso had offered to drive for Merc for £13million,and if Lewis gets to greedy that could be an option, they also suggested that alonso might have a get out clause with mclaren if the honda unit doesn't deliver
Alonso no longer has age on his side in terms of negotiating a new deal, which is something Hamilton could play upon if he was prepared to agree a long term deal, if you assume both drivers will continue until at least 35 Alonso represents a two year useful window vs five years for Hamilton.

In the short term considering how dominant the car is Mercedes could put any decent driver in the seat and still achieve world titles. However given another two or three years of development off a semi standardised set of rules and a "star" driver suddenly becomes requirement in terms achieving results. Alonso at this point would probably be gone from the sport leaving only Hamilton as the other known driver that can extract results from under developed cars.

suffolk009

5,344 posts

164 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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Rachel Brookes reports via twitter: Toto Wolff quoted as saying £1,000,000 per WEEK is "wide of the mark".

How much do the top footballers earn?

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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suffolk009 said:
Rachel Brookes reports via twitter: Toto Wolff quoted as saying £1,000,000 per WEEK is "wide of the mark".

How much do the top footballers earn?
Wayne Rooney is reportedly the highest paid footballist in England on about £250k per week, with the Premier League average salary around £43k per week.

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
quotequote all
b0rk said:
Alonso no longer has age on his side in terms of negotiating a new deal, which is something Hamilton could play upon if he was prepared to agree a long term deal, if you assume both drivers will continue until at least 35 Alonso represents a two year useful window vs five years for Hamilton.

In the short term considering how dominant the car is Mercedes could put any decent driver in the seat and still achieve world titles. However given another two or three years of development off a semi standardised set of rules and a "star" driver suddenly becomes requirement in terms achieving results. Alonso at this point would probably be gone from the sport leaving only Hamilton as the other known driver that can extract results from under developed cars.
Mansell and Hill seemed to do OK at the ripe old age of 39. Age isn't a factor, especially with a driver as skilled as Alonso. I'd love to know how Schumacher would've fared with last year's car.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
quotequote all
suffolk009 said:
Rachel Brookes reports via twitter: Toto Wolff quoted as saying £1,000,000 per WEEK is "wide of the mark".

How much do the top footballers earn?
I have to say that I'd be surprised if LH didn't get in excess of £50m pa. That is, if all income is taken into consideration.


suffolk009

5,344 posts

164 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
suffolk009 said:
Rachel Brookes reports via twitter: Toto Wolff quoted as saying £1,000,000 per WEEK is "wide of the mark".

How much do the top footballers earn?
I have to say that I'd be surprised if LH didn't get in excess of £50m pa. That is, if all income is taken into consideration.
Oh, I quite agree. The implication was (I think) that the £52m, was just his base salary from Merc.

suffolk009

5,344 posts

164 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
quotequote all
Just found this:

London’s Times newspaper said the current discussion is about a new three-year extension worth a staggering $231 million, or $77 million per year.

To be clear, that would be nearly an incredible $1.5 million per week for the 30-year-old Briton, making him easily the highest earner in the history of formula one.

“Sources say Hamilton has decided that, as world champion, he must be the best-paid man on the grid and is anxious to overtake the earnings of Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso,” the report claimed.

German media reports, however, quoted team boss Wolff as utterly rubbishing the claims, saying it is closer to “satire” than reality.

“Such numbers are an absolute illusion,” the Austrian added.

“As Mercedes, we are committed to efficiency, even when it comes to the driver salaries,” Wolff insisted.


Emeye

9,773 posts

222 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
How long are Merc going to stay in F1 though?

Television figures are dropping, the average fan age is going up and the main reason they are winning is because they are throwing huge piles of money at it.

A winning Williams Mercedes would be a much cheaper way of being successful in F1 as their relationship with Mclaren was, and Toto Wolf has shares in Williams.....

So maybe a multi year deal with Mercedes F1 isn't an option for Hamilton. Take Hamilton away and a dominant Mercedes will win the 2015 championship driven by Rosberg. Why pay £52 million extra to gain the same result?

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
Emeye said:
How long are Merc going to stay in F1 though?

Television figures are dropping, the average fan age is going up and the main reason they are winning is because they are throwing huge piles of money at it.

A winning Williams Mercedes would be a much cheaper way of being successful in F1 as their relationship with Mclaren was, and Toto Wolf has shares in Williams.....

So maybe a multi year deal with Mercedes F1 isn't an option for Hamilton. Take Hamilton away and a dominant Mercedes will win the 2015 championship driven by Rosberg. Why pay £52 million extra to gain the same result?
if that were the case, explain Ferrari's total lack of trophies?

I would also argue that currently, the costs of the powertrain to Merc exceeds the cost of the rest of the car/team.



Emeye

9,773 posts

222 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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Scuffers said:
if that were the case, explain Ferrari's total lack of trophies?

I would also argue that currently, the costs of the powertrain to Merc exceeds the cost of the rest of the car/team.
If it wasn't for Merc coming along and spending all that money then Ferrari probably would have won.

Do we know how much money Renault, Ferrari and Merc have spent just on their original powetrain development?

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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Reports like this - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formul... - seem to back up the suggestion that Lewis is a great marketing asset.


Oz83

687 posts

138 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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Mercedes are clearly the dominant team and will be for the next few years or until the next regulation change. If Lewis cares about winning world championships, then he should stay where he is, even if it means getting paid less than Alonso, Vettel etc.

The history books don't list drivers' salaries, and I'm sure Lewis is aware of this.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
Oz83 said:
Mercedes are clearly the dominant team and will be for the next few years or until the next regulation change. If Lewis cares about winning world championships, then he should stay where he is, even if it means getting paid less than Alonso, Vettel etc.

The history books don't list drivers' salaries, and I'm sure Lewis is aware of this.
I would think the history books might be less important to Lewis while he's alive than the bank balance, I know hich one will be more useful to him when he retires, anyway. But then, they are competitive and drive to win.

I guess its's like the Apollo astronauts. Would you rather be Neil Armstrong who spent a few hours on the moon but is forever remembered as the first? Or one of the unknown guys in Apollo 17 who spent three days up there?

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
Emeye said:
Scuffers said:
if that were the case, explain Ferrari's total lack of trophies?

I would also argue that currently, the costs of the powertrain to Merc exceeds the cost of the rest of the car/team.
If it wasn't for Merc coming along and spending all that money then Ferrari probably would have won.

Do we know how much money Renault, Ferrari and Merc have spent just on their original powetrain development?
did you watch last year?

Ferrari came 4th in the constructors championship, without Merc, they would have been 3rd.

on a € per point budget:

Mercedes - €0.42M
Williams - €0.47M
Force India - €0.48M
Red Bull - €1.05M
Mclaren - €1.27M
Ferrari - €1.9M
Toro Rosso - €2.67M
Lotus - €16M
Marussia - €30M
Sauber - €∞
Caterham - €∞





Oz83

687 posts

138 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
kiseca said:
Oz83 said:
Mercedes are clearly the dominant team and will be for the next few years or until the next regulation change. If Lewis cares about winning world championships, then he should stay where he is, even if it means getting paid less than Alonso, Vettel etc.

The history books don't list drivers' salaries, and I'm sure Lewis is aware of this.
I would think the history books might be less important to Lewis while he's alive than the bank balance, I know hich one will be more useful to him when he retires, anyway. But then, they are competitive and drive to win.

I guess its's like the Apollo astronauts. Would you rather be Neil Armstrong who spent a few hours on the moon but is forever remembered as the first? Or one of the unknown guys in Apollo 17 who spent three days up there?
I see what you mean, but as an example would he want to retire with £200M in the bank and 5 world titles, or £300M in the bank and 2 world titles.

When you already have more money than you can possibly spend, success and a place in the history books has to be top of the list.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
suffolk009 said:
Just found this:

London’s Times newspaper said the current discussion is about a new three-year extension worth a staggering $231 million, or $77 million per year.

To be clear, that would be nearly an incredible $1.5 million per week for the 30-year-old Briton, making him easily the highest earner in the history of formula one.

“Sources say Hamilton has decided that, as world champion, he must be the best-paid man on the grid and is anxious to overtake the earnings of Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso,” the report claimed.

German media reports, however, quoted team boss Wolff as utterly rubbishing the claims, saying it is closer to “satire” than reality.

“Such numbers are an absolute illusion,” the Austrian added.

“As Mercedes, we are committed to efficiency, even when it comes to the driver salaries,” Wolff insisted.
Merc have a difficult time in justifying the expenditure to there board, which has a union rep. With unemployed car workers unemployed any suggestion that they are throwing money away on a Brit would not be received with joy.

Any payment would have lots of conditions applied to make it look less intimating than it really is.

Bankers bonuses sort of thing.



rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
kiseca said:
I would think the history books might be less important to Lewis while he's alive than the bank balance, I know hich one will be more useful to him when he retires, anyway. But then, they are competitive and drive to win.

I guess its's like the Apollo astronauts. Would you rather be Neil Armstrong who spent a few hours on the moon but is forever remembered as the first? Or one of the unknown guys in Apollo 17 who spent three days up there?
I think you underestimate Lewis' desire to emulate his hero.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
rubystone said:
I think you underestimate Lewis' desire to emulate his hero.
Possibly, and he kind of is. Senna was notoriously demanding when negotiating contracts.

Oz83 said:
I see what you mean, but as an example would he want to retire with £200M in the bank and 5 world titles, or £300M in the bank and 2 world titles.

When you already have more money than you can possibly spend, success and a place in the history books has to be top of the list.
That is a good counterpoint.

Edited by kiseca on Sunday 1st March 19:26

Emeye

9,773 posts

222 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Emeye said:
Scuffers said:
if that were the case, explain Ferrari's total lack of trophies?

I would also argue that currently, the costs of the powertrain to Merc exceeds the cost of the rest of the car/team.
If it wasn't for Merc coming along and spending all that money then Ferrari probably would have won.

Do we know how much money Renault, Ferrari and Merc have spent just on their original powetrain development?
did you watch last year?

Ferrari came 4th in the constructors championship, without Merc, they would have been 3rd.

on a € per point budget:

Mercedes - €0.42M
Williams - €0.47M
Force India - €0.48M
Red Bull - €1.05M
Mclaren - €1.27M
Ferrari - €1.9M
Toro Rosso - €2.67M
Lotus - €16M
Marussia - €30M
Sauber - €8
Caterham - €8
I didn't mean last year - I'm talking in future - until Merc ps off Ferrari are stuffed even if they get their st together - € per point means little as you can win the driver's or manufacture's championship by just one point and it is still a win - all it shows is that Merc ran away with the championship.

No idea how correct this link is, https://infogr.am/team-f1-2014-budget-and-employee... , but even spending less than Ferrari, it would be cheaper for them to pull out as a manufacturer and support Williams - it could be that the Mercedes engine budget is split across the their engine customer teams though, so engine spending is not clear, and engine is what the current F1 is all about unfortunately.