van de Garde sueing Sauber

[MartG]

In that case they are screwed unless they can come to some kind of settlement, as their current drivers will no dounbt argue they also have valid contracts

[IforB]

Someone is going to have to get their chequebook out to resolve that. The only problem is that it maybe that Sauber's may well be made of rubber...

I'm incredulous as to how any company can allow a situation like this occur. It's mind-bendingly stupid really.

Given that it's such an embarassing and very public failure, I wonder whether it will have any repercussions for Kaltenborn?

[Cyder]

The team really does seem to have lost any credibility since she took over from PS, no sponsors, no points, court cases etc.

Sad really, they always seemed like a plucky poor mans Williams.

[n3il123]

And now Sauber are appealing, to be heard Thursday morning.. Adam Coopers twitter gives. Some good updates.

[andburg]

Seems like it however Sauber have appealed the verdict, now dragging on for another day.

not good for the sport

[EskimoArapaho]

And now Sutil is also taking Sauber to court in Switzerland...

[revrange]

andburg said:

Seems like it however Sauber have appealed the verdict, now dragging on for another day.

not good for the sport

Sure this has happened before, kinda glad Van de grade doing it, clearly he had a contract which Sauber are trying to get out of.

Problem is false win? He wins, they loose money from other paid driver and can't afford to race?

[andburg]

Thats my concern, he was dropped and his contract ended as they could not afford to keep him on not because of his wage, but because his sponsors weren't providing enough cash to keep them afloat.

They're rejigged and brought in money from elsewhere with new drivers to survive.

Its just a mess, had they not taken the other drivers and sponsors there may not have been a car in Melbourne for him to race. His contract may be valid and illegally terminated but if Suaber are forced to pout him in the car they may fail to meet contractual obligations and lose the money they need to race.

Unfortunately the only open seat is a 2014 spec Manor from spain onwards and its not really going to help him fight for points. He'd rather cripple Sauber than take that seat.

[MartG]

Cyder said:

The team really does seem to have lost any credibility since she took over from PS, no sponsors, no points, court cases etc.

Sad really, they always seemed like a plucky poor mans Williams.

If it was Ferrari she'd already be gone whether it was her fault or not

[Europa1]

And to think their Team Principal is a lawyer...

[Dr Murdoch]

andburg said:

Thats my concern, he was dropped and his contract ended as they could not afford to keep him on not because of his wage, but because his sponsors weren't providing enough cash to keep them afloat.

They're rejigged and brought in money from elsewhere with new drivers to survive.

Its just a mess, had they not taken the other drivers and sponsors there may not have been a car in Melbourne for him to race. His contract may be valid and illegally terminated but if Suaber are forced to pout him in the car they may fail to meet contractual obligations and lose the money they need to race.

Unfortunately the only open seat is a 2014 spec Manor from spain onwards and its not really going to help him fight for points. He'd rather cripple Sauber than take that seat.

This article concurs...

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/193955.h...

[FW18]

Sauber redesign car to cope with this outcome...

[angrymoby]

andburg said:

Thats my concern, he was dropped and his contract ended as they could not afford to keep him on not because of his wage, but because his sponsors weren't providing enough cash to keep them afloat.

They're rejigged and brought in money from elsewhere with new drivers to survive.

Its just a mess, had they not taken the other drivers and sponsors there may not have been a car in Melbourne for him to race. His contract may be valid and illegally terminated but if Suaber are forced to pout him in the car they may fail to meet contractual obligations and lose the money they need to race.

Unfortunately the only open seat is a 2014 spec Manor from spain onwards and its not really going to help him fight for points. He'd rather cripple Sauber than take that seat.

Sorry, absolutely zero sympathy for Sauber ...they obviously didn't factor in enough of a compensation package for GvG (& by the looks of it Sutil too)

absolute shambles

[andburg]

angrymoby said:

Sorry, absolutely zero sympathy for Sauber ...they obviously didn't factor in enough of a compensation package for GvG (& by the looks of it Sutil too)

absolute shambles

Call me cynical, but he did does not appear to have started legal proceedings until early march once testing had started, well after his contract was legally/illegally terminated.

Smells like he accepted a package before seeing the car was going to be competitive through testing and has now decided he wants his seat back. He was happy to take the payment when he thought he was going to be running round at the back without even a manor / caterham for company

[EddieSteadyGo]

andburg said:

Thats my concern, he was dropped and his contract ended as they could not afford to keep him on not because of his wage, but because his sponsors weren't providing enough cash to keep them afloat.

If the contract had properly ended, because sponsors weren't paying on time or for any another reason, GvG wouldn't be able to take Sauber to court and be close to winning.

I think we all get the impression that they were running out of cash, and so decided to change their driver plans in order to find a driver who could pay upfront. But Sauber have had cash flow issues for ages, so they would have taken this into account when first signing up with GvG.

It looks very much as though Sauber are being fast and loose with their employee contracts. And they shouldn't be allowed to illegally break existing employee contracts and expect to get away with it.

[btcc123]

andburg said:

Call me cynical, but he did does not appear to have started legal proceedings until early march once testing had started, well after his contract was legally/illegally terminated.

Smells like he accepted a package before seeing the car was going to be competitive through testing and has now decided he wants his seat back. He was happy to take the payment when he thought he was going to be running round at the back without even a manor / caterham for company

If he accepted a package to end his contract he would not have won the Swiss arbitration that ordered Sauber to honour his contract or the Australian court verdict that said he can complete the whole season.

Sauber obviously signed a watertight contract with him and then decided to sign contacts with another two drivers as they bought more money to the team.Thats ok but have to give the original driver compensation to agree to step aside which they obviously did not do.

Fair play to him for winning his case and the judge saying he can drive the car for the whole season as his contract stated.It seams that the other driver last year may be in a similar position and will be doing to court a well so Sauber may have to have the two last years drivers.

Saubers only defence is that he may be dangerous as he has not driven the car which is a load of bo**ocks as there are two or three other drivers who have lass experience than him and if Sauber withdrawal his car they will be in breach of court and dare say breach of FIA rules.

Saying that although he could insist on driving for the whole year I do think that in the next few days a settlement will be sorted so they can use this years signed drivers.

What would happen if the two recently signed drivers went to court as they have a contract.Probably the first two contracts are valid and the last one that I think was ME will be the unlucky one.

Sauber may well win their appeal but hope not as it will be a lot more interesting.

[andburg]

I agree Sauber are in the wrong, not suggesting they aren't, nor am I suggesting they weren't being paid.

I think they failed to realise how expensive the new regs were going to be and couldn't afford to develop a competitive package with the money they were bringing in. They made a decision when back into the corner and have to deal with it now.

His contract has been upheld in 3 separate courts now so i do not doubt it is legal and he should be in the seat. He's technically right, but morally wrong. I just see hime is shooting himself and the sport in the foot, dragging another team into the mud and killing any chances he has of scoring a drive elsewhere if they collapse.

I do not see any way this works out well for the driver/team/fans, i dont thin kthey have the funds to pay anyone to go away

Edited by andburg on Wednesday 11th March 12:02

[btcc123]

I think he is technically and morally right.He signed a contract that he and Sauber were happy with,Sauber knew the costs of F1 in 2015 at that time.

Its a dod eat dog world in formula one and think he is correct in looking after his own interests and is not his concern how Sauber run their team.

If he is in the car for all season he way have a great year and move to a better team next year,stranger things have happened in F1

[rallycross]

This episode is just another symptom of the complete mess F1 is in.

Financially unsustainable model half the grid on the borderline of collapsing
New drives must bring larger cheque book
Sponsors hard (impossible) to find due to excessive cost and poor return and bad press
FIA not got the (backbone or desire) to sort simple things such as contract disputes out behind closed doors
Core markets lost massive coverage due to pay per view model

Sauber have got themselves in this mess through to trying to survive with no sponsor and the only route to a sponsor currently is via these pay drivers. What a mess it is.

[angrymoby]

EddieSteadyGo said:

It looks very much as though Sauber are being fast and loose with their employee contracts. And they shouldn't be allowed to illegally break existing employee contracts and expect to get away with it.

& if they're doing this with a driver ...imagine how 'fast & loose' they'll be with the other 300 odd staff's contracts when it all goes t1ts up (& if this episode is anything to go by, it'll be a matter of 'when' not 'if')

there's only one person responsible for the whole sorry mess ...Kaltenborn

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 11th March 13:16

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 11th March 13:18