Horners at it again
Discussion
Funny they were not moaning when they were winning.
I cannot see that they can leave F1 before 2020 as they have an agreement in place with the FIA and Bernie,thats why they get a large share of the money Bernie dishes out so would be in breach of contract and be fined millions.
Well for one I would not miss them so why dont they just sell Red Ball to Audi and Toro Rosso to Renault then we all would be happy.
I cannot see that they can leave F1 before 2020 as they have an agreement in place with the FIA and Bernie,thats why they get a large share of the money Bernie dishes out so would be in breach of contract and be fined millions.
Well for one I would not miss them so why dont they just sell Red Ball to Audi and Toro Rosso to Renault then we all would be happy.
So much hate for CH and RB that people can't appreciate the grain of truth in what he is saying.
There are some key differences, for example:
1) When RB were dominating they seldom had a 1.5 second a lap advantage. Two of the championships went down to the wire and arguably Alonso should have won one.
2) All of the things RB did to get their advantage (blown exhausts, floppy wings, tricky engine mapping, etc) were eventually banned.
3) In relation to point 2, the other teams had the chance to (and sometimes did) copy similar methods if they wanted. The current Merc engine advantage is partially 'locked in' by the development rules.
4)These power units are eye watering in cost and have pushed several teams to the verge of bankruptcy. This was said to be the wrong approach by many people, including Horner, before any car turned a wheel in anger last year.
And finally, it is blood boring watching one team dominate so much, whether it is Redbull or Mercedes.
Don't get me wrong, Horner is a whiney git and a bad loser..... but he does have a valid point.
There are some key differences, for example:
1) When RB were dominating they seldom had a 1.5 second a lap advantage. Two of the championships went down to the wire and arguably Alonso should have won one.
2) All of the things RB did to get their advantage (blown exhausts, floppy wings, tricky engine mapping, etc) were eventually banned.
3) In relation to point 2, the other teams had the chance to (and sometimes did) copy similar methods if they wanted. The current Merc engine advantage is partially 'locked in' by the development rules.
4)These power units are eye watering in cost and have pushed several teams to the verge of bankruptcy. This was said to be the wrong approach by many people, including Horner, before any car turned a wheel in anger last year.
And finally, it is blood boring watching one team dominate so much, whether it is Redbull or Mercedes.
Don't get me wrong, Horner is a whiney git and a bad loser..... but he does have a valid point.
lambosagogo said:
For #2, they were clearly pushing the boundaries of the rules and stepped over in a few places. Rules were clarified and the various dubious bits were removed. Merc seem to have just built a good car and a good engine with no selective interpretation of rules.
Selective interpretation of the rules has always been part of F1.... RB did get creative in some places and other teams copied what they did but not as well.... so those things got banned specifically to slow RB down. Plus we don't know if Merc have selectively interpreted the rules with the engine or mapping... more difficult for the journalist to spot such a thing when compared to say a front wing which obviously flexes under load.
VolvoT5 said:
So much hate for CH and RB that people can't appreciate the grain of truth in what he is saying.
There are some key differences, for example:
1) When RB were dominating they seldom had a 1.5 second a lap advantage. Two of the championships went down to the wire and arguably Alonso should have won one.
2) All of the things RB did to get their advantage (blown exhausts, floppy wings, tricky engine mapping, etc) were eventually banned.
3) In relation to point 2, the other teams had the chance to (and sometimes did) copy similar methods if they wanted. The current Merc engine advantage is partially 'locked in' by the development rules.
4)These power units are eye watering in cost and have pushed several teams to the verge of bankruptcy. This was said to be the wrong approach by many people, including Horner, before any car turned a wheel in anger last year.
And finally, it is blood boring watching one team dominate so much, whether it is Redbull or Mercedes.
Don't get me wrong, Horner is a whiney git and a bad loser..... but he does have a valid point.
Don't forget the Merc had to lose FRICs due to a certain team maintaining it was the most advanced and likely illegal, look what difference that made to the outcome!There are some key differences, for example:
1) When RB were dominating they seldom had a 1.5 second a lap advantage. Two of the championships went down to the wire and arguably Alonso should have won one.
2) All of the things RB did to get their advantage (blown exhausts, floppy wings, tricky engine mapping, etc) were eventually banned.
3) In relation to point 2, the other teams had the chance to (and sometimes did) copy similar methods if they wanted. The current Merc engine advantage is partially 'locked in' by the development rules.
4)These power units are eye watering in cost and have pushed several teams to the verge of bankruptcy. This was said to be the wrong approach by many people, including Horner, before any car turned a wheel in anger last year.
And finally, it is blood boring watching one team dominate so much, whether it is Redbull or Mercedes.
Don't get me wrong, Horner is a whiney git and a bad loser..... but he does have a valid point.
We all (well some) complain about artificial racing this that or the other, well how much more artificial can it get if Merc are told to turn the wick down on their engines under these supposed equalisation rules?
Basically what CH is saying is 'WE' (as in RBR inc Renault) have built an inferior engine and/or software compared to Mercedes who have 'done a good job' CH was quoted as saying. I say TOUGH LUCK, when it was the other way around all we heard was 'they need to do a better job', 'they need to work harder'
I don't buy this b
ks that all their gizmos were removed to slow them down, the gizmos that made them quick were illegal and had to be removed. I also don't buy this 'its not good for the sport' when one team dominates, well at if Merc dominate at least they let both their drivers fight unlike Ferrari when schuey has a clause in his contract saying the number 2 driver was not allowed to see his data but he was allowed theirs, not one team mate was allowed to get near him, same for RBR with Webber, while golden bks was the blue eyed boy webber was constantly reined back, at least Merc let their drivers race
Catatafish said:
There's always one team in ascendance/dominating for a few years, then some other ascends. Rinse and repeat.
And it's usually following drastic rule changes. It's what did it for RBR and what is now doing for Merc. Once there's been a period of stability in the rules, other teams start to catch up. This routine simply doesn't work and we're seeing an extreme example of it in action now, to the detriment of the sport.Horner has probably learnt how to have a strop from his missus. He didn't give a rats arse when Seb was winning everything. Now its all going to pot, poor engine, star driver gone, star designer stepping back.
As Frank Williams put it in a Motorsport magazine podcast a while back - sooner or later everyone has to get st on, just a matter of taking your turn. Guess what Christian...
Horner could learn a lot from Frank, who despite his personal issues and advancing age lives/eats/sleeps racing and appears to have transferred it to Claire, long may the team continue.
If Horner/Marco/Mateschitz think that they can start throwing their weight around and demanding this and that sooner or later they'll come up against Bernie and will lose.
You may not be aware, but after Australia Vettel & Rosberg had a little exchange about just how Merc are managing to do what they do, it has culminated in Vettel being invited to engineer debrief sessions with Merc (!). Vettel is desperate to find out the secrets and use them to challenge Merc, I suspect one of the reasons he left RB was he didn't see that drive and ambition, they rested on their laurels a bit too much and pointed fingers at Renault.
It is a shame that no-one is challenging Mercedes at the moment, but I have a feeling that Ferrari are on the way to do just that before the year is out. I would not be surprised if McLaren are knocking on Red Bulls door by the end of season as well - sure they've had a hard winter but if Honda can sort that engine I'd have some faith in Prodromou being able to get the rest in half decent shape and they'll be right there.
The Renault V8 was down on power compared to the other engines, its just that the RB aero and chassis made up for it (most of the time). Now they have a engine that is behind the others but don't have the aero/chassis advantage.
There was talk that RB were going to take a more active role in the management of the Renault engine operation, does anyone know if this has happened ? its all gone rather quiet on that.
As Frank Williams put it in a Motorsport magazine podcast a while back - sooner or later everyone has to get s
t on, just a matter of taking your turn. Guess what Christian...Horner could learn a lot from Frank, who despite his personal issues and advancing age lives/eats/sleeps racing and appears to have transferred it to Claire, long may the team continue.
If Horner/Marco/Mateschitz think that they can start throwing their weight around and demanding this and that sooner or later they'll come up against Bernie and will lose.
You may not be aware, but after Australia Vettel & Rosberg had a little exchange about just how Merc are managing to do what they do, it has culminated in Vettel being invited to engineer debrief sessions with Merc (!). Vettel is desperate to find out the secrets and use them to challenge Merc, I suspect one of the reasons he left RB was he didn't see that drive and ambition, they rested on their laurels a bit too much and pointed fingers at Renault.
It is a shame that no-one is challenging Mercedes at the moment, but I have a feeling that Ferrari are on the way to do just that before the year is out. I would not be surprised if McLaren are knocking on Red Bulls door by the end of season as well - sure they've had a hard winter but if Honda can sort that engine I'd have some faith in Prodromou being able to get the rest in half decent shape and they'll be right there.
The Renault V8 was down on power compared to the other engines, its just that the RB aero and chassis made up for it (most of the time). Now they have a engine that is behind the others but don't have the aero/chassis advantage.
There was talk that RB were going to take a more active role in the management of the Renault engine operation, does anyone know if this has happened ? its all gone rather quiet on that.
I think there's a crucial difference between the dominance of the two teams.
RBR regularly pushed the limits of technical regulation beyond legality and employ overly creative interpretation of the rules.
Mercedes - as far as we know, and I think we would by now - have simply done a better job. That's it.
RBR regularly pushed the limits of technical regulation beyond legality and employ overly creative interpretation of the rules.
Mercedes - as far as we know, and I think we would by now - have simply done a better job. That's it.
All teams are allowed 25 hours of testing between races.
The hours are reduced by the points awarded to the lead finishing car of that team.
Similar approach could be taken with the engine token rules.
Seems strange that Mercedes with their advantage are able to upgrade components in their engine when Honda playing catch up can change so few.
The hours are reduced by the points awarded to the lead finishing car of that team.
Similar approach could be taken with the engine token rules.
Seems strange that Mercedes with their advantage are able to upgrade components in their engine when Honda playing catch up can change so few.
thought i'd dig this up, can't find the links to when horner said that it is other teams responsibilities to catch red bull up back in 2011 i think.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/111324-rbr-f1-can-t-f...
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/111324-rbr-f1-can-t-f...
Doink said:
So what do you propose then, fine Mercedes for doing to good a job with their engine, slow them down maybe?
At least we get 2 drivers with 2 equal cars being allowed to race which is more than we got with RBR and Ferrari
For clarity I don't think Mercedes have done anything wrong, or that they should be neutered. I just think fundamentally that at this level even the slightest innovation or edge is magnified to the point where you have this state of affairs. I don't think it's particularly fun to watch races where several teams at a severe disadvantage to the point where they have no hope of winning absent mechanical failure.At least we get 2 drivers with 2 equal cars being allowed to race which is more than we got with RBR and Ferrari
I don't know the solution to this really, but I do feel in the interests of competition every team on the grid should have a shout of winning, with the drivers being the component that each team is measured by. Perhaps it's an idealistic fantasy so long as F1 is sold as the pinnacle of motorsport development.
bullies180 said:
thought i'd dig this up, can't find the links to when horner said that it is other teams responsibilities to catch red bull up back in 2011 i think.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/111324-rbr-f1-can-t-f...
I think it was more recent than 2011. I seem to recall it was Monaco and he was on a yacht when he said it. That article just shows what a two faced hypocrite he is. he'll only be happy when he's winning.http://www.racer.com/f1/item/111324-rbr-f1-can-t-f...
RBR built a car around one guys style of driving and pushing the rules on aero. They won.
It was boring to watch because their one driver would qualify in pole and then launch off into the distance.
Firstly Merc have built and engine AND a car that 2 very different drivers can drive within a tenth of each other.
Secondly they allow their drivers to race each other.
Thirdly as last season proves, they do fail. The very first race last year saw LH out.
Add all that together and you have a much better prospect for the year. Yes it would be harder to swallow if the driver lineup didn't include a Brit, but I still think a good percentage of people would still tune in to watch because you just enough interest to see which one pulls it off this week.
Add in that the mid field are properly close, and Ferrari might just be able to push harder and produce even better result now they have a car and engine that works for its drivers they might just be up there with Merc soon.
CH needs to knuckle down and work with Renault rather than slag them off. Merc and Ferrari produce both engine and car and are doing ok, maybe if he acted like Renault and his team were on the same page they might also be doing better.
It was boring to watch because their one driver would qualify in pole and then launch off into the distance.
Firstly Merc have built and engine AND a car that 2 very different drivers can drive within a tenth of each other.
Secondly they allow their drivers to race each other.
Thirdly as last season proves, they do fail. The very first race last year saw LH out.
Add all that together and you have a much better prospect for the year. Yes it would be harder to swallow if the driver lineup didn't include a Brit, but I still think a good percentage of people would still tune in to watch because you just enough interest to see which one pulls it off this week.
Add in that the mid field are properly close, and Ferrari might just be able to push harder and produce even better result now they have a car and engine that works for its drivers they might just be up there with Merc soon.
CH needs to knuckle down and work with Renault rather than slag them off. Merc and Ferrari produce both engine and car and are doing ok, maybe if he acted like Renault and his team were on the same page they might also be doing better.
spats said:
CH needs to knuckle down and work with Renault rather than slag them off. Merc and Ferrari produce both engine and car and are doing ok, maybe if he acted like Renault and his team were on the same page they might also be doing better.
Did you see a different race to me? The one I watched saw the Ferrari finish 30s behind the Mercs. 30s! They might have improved but unless they've a lot in reserve (which I imagine the Mercs have as well anyway) then there's little chance they'll push Merc this year.The deficit between Merc and the other teams, off the back of the Aus GP, would appear to be a real gulf. Way bigger than RBR ever had over others. You can begin to understand why Massa was publicly scratching his head about the difference.
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