Horners at it again
Discussion
Crafty_ said:
A mate at work has been saying for a few years as soon as they stop winning they'll quit
To be fair, there are Ferrari, McLaren and Williams (arguably Sauber): every other team has shown that if they stop receiving benefits from the sport they'll quit or sell up. But I know what your mate means. RB pays for the team as a commercial enterprise with little apparent thought for the sport. Once Newey went, your mate must have thought that was it.Ecclestone has handed RB what is almost a controlling interest, with Ferrari, in F1. One wonders if this is an attempt to use that control for their own ends.
I've never seen any threats from Williams or McLaren about quitting, ok there was the whole FOTA thing but no-one took that seriously.
Ferrari wouldn't quit - it was just the threats to get more money out of Bernie.
I don't see how Bernie has handed RB anything. I very much suspect he sees Horner as an annoying little twerp.
Red Bull found they couldn't win in NASCAR, its a hard sport and simply throwing money at it doesn't work. They simply could not compete with Hendrick, SHR, Rousch etc.
So they just closed the team and sold off everything, I don't think they do anything in US racing now.
Ferrari wouldn't quit - it was just the threats to get more money out of Bernie.
I don't see how Bernie has handed RB anything. I very much suspect he sees Horner as an annoying little twerp.
Red Bull found they couldn't win in NASCAR, its a hard sport and simply throwing money at it doesn't work. They simply could not compete with Hendrick, SHR, Rousch etc.
So they just closed the team and sold off everything, I don't think they do anything in US racing now.
Crafty_ said:
I don't see how Bernie has handed RB anything. I very much suspect he sees Horner as an annoying little twerp.
Red Bull found they couldn't win in NASCAR, its a hard sport and simply throwing money at it doesn't work. They simply could not compete with Hendrick, SHR, Rousch etc.
So they just closed the team and sold off everything, I don't think they do anything in US racing now.
RBR has a greater say in how F1 is run than McL, Williams and Merc. They been sponsors for a few years and they are just a fraction down on Ferrari on paper, but above them in influence.Red Bull found they couldn't win in NASCAR, its a hard sport and simply throwing money at it doesn't work. They simply could not compete with Hendrick, SHR, Rousch etc.
So they just closed the team and sold off everything, I don't think they do anything in US racing now.
Ecclestone wants them to stay. RB knows this so has the whip hand. There was a suggestion that Horner would be Ecclestone's replacement.
I can't say I find Horner a particularly pleasant chap but I think I remember him running a very successful F1 team. Whatever else he is, he's good at his job.
I assume this strop is planned. There's no such thing as an off-the-cuff remark in F1. This is a ploy and, one would assume, Horner is saying what he was told to say. Whatever, this is not a whinge but a plan to get a more powerful package.
If RBR pull the plug then the value of CVC will take a hit. There is lots on line about the way CVC is funded and if these reports are true, then the last thing they need is for two teams and four cars to disappear.
We all knew, going by the posts on here, that Newey going would hurt RBR and if memory serves, some suggested that it might herald RBR's abandonment of F1. Couldn't see that myself, but it would appear that I might well have been wrong.
Derek Smith said:
RBR has a greater say in how F1 is run than McL, Williams and Merc. They been sponsors for a few years and they are just a fraction down on Ferrari on paper, but above them in influence.
Ecclestone wants them to stay. RB knows this so has the whip hand. There was a suggestion that Horner would be Ecclestone's replacement.
I can't say I find Horner a particularly pleasant chap but I think I remember him running a very successful F1 team. Whatever else he is, he's good at his job.
I assume this strop is planned. There's no such thing as an off-the-cuff remark in F1. This is a ploy and, one would assume, Horner is saying what he was told to say. Whatever, this is not a whinge but a plan to get a more powerful package.
If RBR pull the plug then the value of CVC will take a hit. There is lots on line about the way CVC is funded and if these reports are true, then the last thing they need is for two teams and four cars to disappear.
We all knew, going by the posts on here, that Newey going would hurt RBR and if memory serves, some suggested that it might herald RBR's abandonment of F1. Couldn't see that myself, but it would appear that I might well have been wrong.
Some very good points there Derek.Ecclestone wants them to stay. RB knows this so has the whip hand. There was a suggestion that Horner would be Ecclestone's replacement.
I can't say I find Horner a particularly pleasant chap but I think I remember him running a very successful F1 team. Whatever else he is, he's good at his job.
I assume this strop is planned. There's no such thing as an off-the-cuff remark in F1. This is a ploy and, one would assume, Horner is saying what he was told to say. Whatever, this is not a whinge but a plan to get a more powerful package.
If RBR pull the plug then the value of CVC will take a hit. There is lots on line about the way CVC is funded and if these reports are true, then the last thing they need is for two teams and four cars to disappear.
We all knew, going by the posts on here, that Newey going would hurt RBR and if memory serves, some suggested that it might herald RBR's abandonment of F1. Couldn't see that myself, but it would appear that I might well have been wrong.
Interesting about Newey, listening to the Motorsport magazine season preview podacst they suggested that Newey is pretty much as involved this year and in the design as he always has been.
Horner is obviously a good in his role as manager of an F1 team, Ferrari have been pretty good over the years of showing that it isn't just about the money spent, and arguably the same can be said of McLaren over the last few years (I'm reserving judgement on this year so far). It just seems that this year, and last to a slightly lesser extent, he isn't good at managing his own image and, by extension, that of Red Bull racing.
There are a lot of things which have to come together to be successful, for four years it was the Adrian Newey design, exhaust blown diffusers, a good and reliable Renault engine and a driver very capable of using those things. Last year two of those were lost to Red Bull, this year so far the engine isn't any good and the star driver has gone (although after last year that is no great loss). I think it would be better for the sport and RB team if Horner stopped criticising and just got on with helping the team and its engine supplier to get back to the top - in this respect Ron Dennis is doing a much better job than Horner so far.
But, not doubt, there is a bigger agenda going on that we may or may not learn more about at some point in the future.
I don't buy the "RB has more influence than all the other teams" thing. They certainly try th throw their weight around, but I don't see much evidence of them getting their own way.
If that were true their continuing dominance would have been assured, their more dubious "grey area" moves would have been allowed, the whole "illegal merc test" thing would have gone in their favour, merc would have been pegged back last year and this and so on. All the renault powered teams got a reprieve with the engine rules this year but its hardly handing them the championship.
When it comes down to it, Bernie doesn't really give a stuff who wins or how often, provided he has a package to sell to TV companies and race organisers. Certainly teams leaving is not welcome but I cannot see Bernie taking nicely to being pushed around by Marko and Mateschitz.
In some ways a bit of soap opera drama "he said, she said" stuff could be welcome, a few news articles/interviews gets people reading, seeing sponsor logos etc.
Of course Horner is saying what he's been told to say, but lets remember that the entire Red Bull team(s), academy etc is all about PR for the drink company, they want pictures of their logo on overalls and the car on a Monday morning back page.
Mateschitz does not care how it is achieved, currently the ability to do that is beyond their control so the toys are out of the pram and will continue to be so until they regain their form of 2009-2013. If it means throwing Renault under a bus, they'll do it, if it means complaints to the FIA they'll do it, if it means publicly slating F1, they'll do it.
If that were true their continuing dominance would have been assured, their more dubious "grey area" moves would have been allowed, the whole "illegal merc test" thing would have gone in their favour, merc would have been pegged back last year and this and so on. All the renault powered teams got a reprieve with the engine rules this year but its hardly handing them the championship.
When it comes down to it, Bernie doesn't really give a stuff who wins or how often, provided he has a package to sell to TV companies and race organisers. Certainly teams leaving is not welcome but I cannot see Bernie taking nicely to being pushed around by Marko and Mateschitz.
In some ways a bit of soap opera drama "he said, she said" stuff could be welcome, a few news articles/interviews gets people reading, seeing sponsor logos etc.
Of course Horner is saying what he's been told to say, but lets remember that the entire Red Bull team(s), academy etc is all about PR for the drink company, they want pictures of their logo on overalls and the car on a Monday morning back page.
Mateschitz does not care how it is achieved, currently the ability to do that is beyond their control so the toys are out of the pram and will continue to be so until they regain their form of 2009-2013. If it means throwing Renault under a bus, they'll do it, if it means complaints to the FIA they'll do it, if it means publicly slating F1, they'll do it.
andyps said:
But, not doubt, there is a bigger agenda going on that we may or may not learn more about at some point in the future.
Isn't that the most infuriating thing about it all. We can only guess. (Although we know really.)I think Newey has been bought back in but, the theory is, that aero does not give the same advantages as it did pre the current forumla. I reckon he'd the best paid bloke in F1.
Crafty_ said:
I don't buy the "RB has more influence than all the other teams" thing.
Current:http://www.f1racingnews.com/index.php/f1-news/6837...
End of 2014:
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/05/the-f1-...
In essence, RBR were given considerations (money) to sign the current concord agreement, so breaking the power of FOCA. They got almost as much as Ferrari, and there were suggestions that they actually got more when all was added up, but this seems a guess and no one seems to know what ‘all’ is.
They have a veto on modifications to the agreement, or rather have a say in strategy. Which means they have a veto.
Other teams, after the collapse of FOCA, came on board, but they got less money and influence as their leverage had weakened once Ecclestone had broken FOCA.
Merc’s current position might well be more enjoyable for them after they were relgated into the second division of F1 control.
Can’t argue with history.
Well, you can, but it might be advisable to search on F1 Concorde Agreement 2013 first.
Edited by Derek Smith on Saturday 21st March 10:14
Doink said:
So the red bull is un-drivable for whatever reason probably software so why is that Mercs fault why should Merc be made to suffer?
I hope red bull do quit, they're not a proper race team anyway, only in f1 for the glamour
I think that's a rather harsh assessment of the Red Bull team.I hope red bull do quit, they're not a proper race team anyway, only in f1 for the glamour
Derek Smith said:
andyps said:
But, not doubt, there is a bigger agenda going on that we may or may not learn more about at some point in the future.
Isn't that the most infuriating thing about it all. We can only guess. (Although we know really.)I think Newey has been bought back in but, the theory is, that aero does not give the same advantages as it did pre the current forumla. I reckon he'd the best paid bloke in F1.
Crafty_ said:
I don't buy the "RB has more influence than all the other teams" thing.
Current:http://www.f1racingnews.com/index.php/f1-news/6837...
End of 2014:
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/05/the-f1-...
In essence, RBR were given considerations (money) to sign the current concord agreement, so breaking the power of FOCA. They got almost as much as Ferrari, and there were suggestions that they actually got more when all was added up, but this seems a guess and no one seems to know what ‘all’ is.
They have a veto on modifications to the agreement, or rather have a say in strategy. Which means they have a veto.
Other teams, after the collapse of FOCA, came on board, but they got less money and influence as their leverage had weakened once Ecclestone had broken FOCA.
Merc’s current position might well be more enjoyable for them after they were relgated into the second division of F1 control.
Can’t argue with history.
Current:
http://www.f1racingnews.com/index.php/f1-news/6837...
End of 2014:
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/05/the-f1-...
In essence, RBR were given considerations (money) to sign the current concord agreement, so breaking the power of FOCA. They got almost as much as Ferrari, and there were suggestions that they actually got more when all was added up, but this seems a guess and no one seems to know what ‘all’ is.
They have a veto on modifications to the agreement, or rather have a say in 'strategy'. Which means they have a veto.
Other teams, after the collapse of FOCA, came on board, but they got less money and influence as their leverage had weakened once Ecclestone had broken FOCA.
Merc’s current position might well be more enjoyable for them after they were relgated into the second division of F1 control.
Can’t argue with history.
Well, you can, but it might be advisable to search on F1 Concorde Agreement 2013 first.
REALIST123 said:
Newey never went. And it's not just the aero he's involved in.
He stayed away though. I am open to the idea that he never intended to go and that it was all an attempt to up his value. If so, then all it took was him taking a couple of weekends off.I agree that his responsibility goes beyond just the aero but that is where he excels. Or rather, aero was a major factor in the advantages that RBR enjoyed. Now that, it would appear, engines and ancillaries off the biggest advantage, RB are struggling.
Derek Smith said:
Crafty_ said:
I don't buy the "RB has more influence than all the other teams" thing.
Current:http://www.f1racingnews.com/index.php/f1-news/6837...
End of 2014:
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/05/the-f1-...
In essence, RBR were given considerations (money) to sign the current concord agreement, so breaking the power of FOCA. They got almost as much as Ferrari, and there were suggestions that they actually got more when all was added up, but this seems a guess and no one seems to know what ‘all’ is.
They have a veto on modifications to the agreement, or rather have a say in strategy. Which means they have a veto.
Other teams, after the collapse of FOCA, came on board, but they got less money and influence as their leverage had weakened once Ecclestone had broken FOCA.
Merc’s current position might well be more enjoyable for them after they were relgated into the second division of F1 control.
Can’t argue with history.
look at the URL of your first link: RUMOUR.
fact is that the amounts involved in the concorde agreement are secret, no one writing about it actually knows what the amounts are, Joe Saward has even said so himself.
In any case, given their recent success I would suggest that Red Bull were due a increased share, because although I don't agree with it the bigger teams get a larger cut, that's just the way it has ended up.
None of this proves that RB have any hold over the sport, regulations or commercial matters outside of their deal with Bernie. if they did have control as you suggest how come 12 months down the line they are in the exact same situation as last year and are squealing like a stuck pig about it. How come they haven't had Merc pegged back or got special dispensatons?
They are relative newcomers and still have things to learn. You don't see Frank Williams (who would gain hugely from Merc being pegged back) or Ron Dennis crying to the media about their predicaments do you ? Christ look at the s
t Graeme Lowdon has been through in the last 12 months, all the guy wants to do is race. Meantime Horner is having a temper tantrum.Mind you, if Buxton's article is correct Red Bull flexing it's muscles and getting it's own way only seems to blow up in their face, maybe they should be a bit more careful!
Edited by Crafty_ on Saturday 21st March 13:41
Ok some questions, right so Horner is whining that the Renault is 100hp down on the Mercedes through whatever reason be it the engine or software, so lets assume (and we have no reason to suggest otherwise) that all the Mercedes teams have parity does this mean he wants ALL the Merc teams pegged back to the RBR level or just the works team?
And assuming this equalisation does go through then how do they do it, is it as simple as just asking/forcing them to turn the wick down, if so to what level, who says yes that's enough we can keep up now, its not very scientific is it?
And while this equalisation is in force would Renault still be able to develop their engine or software because if they did then eventually Merc would need to turn up their wick as per equalisation
I just can't see how any of this would work
And assuming this equalisation does go through then how do they do it, is it as simple as just asking/forcing them to turn the wick down, if so to what level, who says yes that's enough we can keep up now, its not very scientific is it?
And while this equalisation is in force would Renault still be able to develop their engine or software because if they did then eventually Merc would need to turn up their wick as per equalisation
I just can't see how any of this would work
Either through choice or lack of resources Renault have not used as high a proportion of their engine tokens as the others. If they wanted equalisation they could have invested more tokens and had a more powerful engine now. If they couldn't have achieved that because Renault doesn't have the resources, that's their problem; they chose to remain with Renault, as a 'works' team, presumably to give them the same advantage as Mercedes and Ferrari. If that decision was a bad one, it shouldn't be Ferrari and Mercedes being punished for making good ones of their own.
Horner's comments would stick less in the throat, were it not for the fact that his team cheated their way through bloody great holes in the regulations and the spirit of the regulations to dominate for 4 years. If I recall correctly his comments when questioned about that at the time were to suggest his rivals should suck it up and work harder.
Chickens and roosting springs to mind.
Horner's comments would stick less in the throat, were it not for the fact that his team cheated their way through bloody great holes in the regulations and the spirit of the regulations to dominate for 4 years. If I recall correctly his comments when questioned about that at the time were to suggest his rivals should suck it up and work harder.
Chickens and roosting springs to mind.
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