The Official 2015 Malaysian Grand Prix Thread ***Spoilers**
Discussion
Maybe in a few years the physical size and weight of the driver might become an important factor, whereby women might actually be preferable over their male counterparts doe to their smaller size.
F1 Drivers are already having to practically starve themselves to keep their weight down. Look at Moto GP and Marc Marquez/Dani Pedrosa - both around 5ft 5" and under 60kg. Ok I know the human to machine ratio is very different to F1, but when every kg = time on the track, then it makes sense to have the smallest and lightest driver.
It seems to me that whilst talent is paramount in F1, the car plays a bigger role in determining who will win (would Hamilton win the the Manor...no. Would Chilton have challenged for the podium in the Merc last year - I'll stick my neck out and say yes). A definite advantage can be gained by having a tiny driver, provided the driver is at least capable of driving at a minimum performance level.
F1 Drivers are already having to practically starve themselves to keep their weight down. Look at Moto GP and Marc Marquez/Dani Pedrosa - both around 5ft 5" and under 60kg. Ok I know the human to machine ratio is very different to F1, but when every kg = time on the track, then it makes sense to have the smallest and lightest driver.
It seems to me that whilst talent is paramount in F1, the car plays a bigger role in determining who will win (would Hamilton win the the Manor...no. Would Chilton have challenged for the podium in the Merc last year - I'll stick my neck out and say yes). A definite advantage can be gained by having a tiny driver, provided the driver is at least capable of driving at a minimum performance level.
callyman said:
Alonso and Button said they were happy with the progress made since Australia.....did I miss something?
Catching and passing cars for points paying positions, and doing so with a striking performance advantage in the corners over the Force Indias, for instance. The car looks great, and the McLaren hasn't looked great for the last couple of years. The power unit performance and reliability needs work, but the chassis looks well sorted. It won't be long now IMO.Oz83 said:
Maybe in a few years the physical size and weight of the driver might become an important factor, whereby women might actually be preferable over their male counterparts doe to their smaller size.
F1 Drivers are already having to practically starve themselves to keep their weight down. Look at Moto GP and Marc Marquez/Dani Pedrosa - both around 5ft 5" and under 60kg. Ok I know the human to machine ratio is very different to F1, but when every kg = time on the track, then it makes sense to have the smallest and lightest driver.
It seems to me that whilst talent is paramount in F1, the car plays a bigger role in determining who will win (would Hamilton win the the Manor...no. Would Chilton have challenged for the podium in the Merc last year - I'll stick my neck out and say yes). A definite advantage can be gained by having a tiny driver, provided the driver is at least capable of driving at a minimum performance level.
Wasn't there a rules change recently to minimise this?F1 Drivers are already having to practically starve themselves to keep their weight down. Look at Moto GP and Marc Marquez/Dani Pedrosa - both around 5ft 5" and under 60kg. Ok I know the human to machine ratio is very different to F1, but when every kg = time on the track, then it makes sense to have the smallest and lightest driver.
It seems to me that whilst talent is paramount in F1, the car plays a bigger role in determining who will win (would Hamilton win the the Manor...no. Would Chilton have challenged for the podium in the Merc last year - I'll stick my neck out and say yes). A definite advantage can be gained by having a tiny driver, provided the driver is at least capable of driving at a minimum performance level.
Paul_M3 said:
Where we disagree is the importance of strength for the formula one driver. I think once you can compete the race without being tired, an increase in strength gives minimal increase in performance.
. . .
I don't think the Regulations need to be changed to allow women to compete. I just think that statistically it's much less likely for a female to have the ability required to earn a place in F1.
Only a tiny fraction of male drivers are good enough to make it to F1, and with so few females in the lower formulae it's no real surprise we haven't seen a female superstar yet.
It's an interesting discussion, and I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think we are that far apart. I agree that many people overestimate the importance of physical strength and endurance in the sport. There are not two camps: males and females 'overlap' frequently, so to speak. It is just that final fraction of a percent, but in a sport where a tenth difference between lap times of team mates is seen as a massive psychological victory in qualifying, that fraction is, I think, enough to see off the vast majority of women. . . .
I don't think the Regulations need to be changed to allow women to compete. I just think that statistically it's much less likely for a female to have the ability required to earn a place in F1.
Only a tiny fraction of male drivers are good enough to make it to F1, and with so few females in the lower formulae it's no real surprise we haven't seen a female superstar yet.
It's an interesting discussion, and I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
My point is that only a tiny fraction of men are good enough to be in the sport so extra fractions are critical.
So let's agree on that, which is my main point.
As for designing regulations to limit the advantage of men over women, I seem to remember Button suggesting that being tall(ish) meant that he was at an immediate disadvantage and called for the regs to be modified to eliminate it. I'm not suggesting I think that's the way to go, but sauce for the goose so to speak.
Would having female drivers in F1 do anything for the sport? Would it make it more exciting?
I remember reading that Eskimos tend to have an 'extra' layer of fat and this reduces their ability to compete at many sports, particularly track and many field events. Are the Olympic rules and regs discriminating against Eskimos? If so, should they be changed? Or should sport be about those who are best at what they do?
Women can't compete at the highest level in, for instance, sprint events. So they have their own championship. Does this lessen their achievements?
If not, then why not a female F1 race?
I think driver fitness is overstated.
yes some of them are supremely fit, but I don't think modern F1 cars require anything like the same levels of physical exertion they used to.
these days it's all about losing weight, so their biggest issue is endurance.
in the old days, stuff was far harder to drive workload wise, and are you going to tell me that James Hunt, Jackie Stewart, Nigel Mansell etc were all athletes?
yes some of them are supremely fit, but I don't think modern F1 cars require anything like the same levels of physical exertion they used to.
these days it's all about losing weight, so their biggest issue is endurance.
in the old days, stuff was far harder to drive workload wise, and are you going to tell me that James Hunt, Jackie Stewart, Nigel Mansell etc were all athletes?
I was in the pits at an LMES even chatting to the team manager. There were two cars. One was driven by an all male team, the other all female.
At one point one of the male drivers was called into the pits for a scheduled stop. He missed his first chance, and then missed the second. When he eventually came in the atmosphere was a little frosty.
At one time the all female car was closing on the one in front, and at a rate that was not enough to overtake before the end of the race. The driver was complying with the planned lap times, for fuel economy and reliability but this far into the race, it was felt that both limits were pushable. Out went the board to push, and the lap time increased on the next lap, then again on the subsequent one and then stayed more or less level for about four or five laps. We would beat the other car is lap times stayed the same.
The car in front came in for a 'splash and dash', was out before 'our' car came around, and the lead car put in a blinding, although slightly slower, couple of laps showing, quite clearly - as it was meant to do - that a challenge would be risky.
Out went the board to tell our driver to revert to plan.
On the next lap our car was back almost to the plan, and on all subsequent ones she hit it spot on.
The team manager reckoned - I'm not making any judgement, but this bloke was a racing driver, and had managed a number of teams - that 'no man' would, or could, do what the woman had done. It would have taken a bit of time for the adrenaline to wear off to a level where judgement was not impaired.
I think there's no doubt that women can compete in endurance racing. I've seen it. These certainly did and the specific driver could have gone a lot faster. On top of that, conditions in the car were a real test for the driver. When a car came in I stepped up to take a photo and the heat that came out of the car was so great that I took a step back. As the drivers came past me after a stint it was as if they were 3kw fires. Yet the women seemed to be able to put up with it as well as the men so no differences there.
In discussing the matter with another team manager at a later race, he too reckoned that women had certain distinct advantages over men in endurance racing, although one would assume that managing was one concern. He felt that for outright speed men had a slight advantage, but in a race there was little if anything to choose between them.
At one point one of the male drivers was called into the pits for a scheduled stop. He missed his first chance, and then missed the second. When he eventually came in the atmosphere was a little frosty.
At one time the all female car was closing on the one in front, and at a rate that was not enough to overtake before the end of the race. The driver was complying with the planned lap times, for fuel economy and reliability but this far into the race, it was felt that both limits were pushable. Out went the board to push, and the lap time increased on the next lap, then again on the subsequent one and then stayed more or less level for about four or five laps. We would beat the other car is lap times stayed the same.
The car in front came in for a 'splash and dash', was out before 'our' car came around, and the lead car put in a blinding, although slightly slower, couple of laps showing, quite clearly - as it was meant to do - that a challenge would be risky.
Out went the board to tell our driver to revert to plan.
On the next lap our car was back almost to the plan, and on all subsequent ones she hit it spot on.
The team manager reckoned - I'm not making any judgement, but this bloke was a racing driver, and had managed a number of teams - that 'no man' would, or could, do what the woman had done. It would have taken a bit of time for the adrenaline to wear off to a level where judgement was not impaired.
I think there's no doubt that women can compete in endurance racing. I've seen it. These certainly did and the specific driver could have gone a lot faster. On top of that, conditions in the car were a real test for the driver. When a car came in I stepped up to take a photo and the heat that came out of the car was so great that I took a step back. As the drivers came past me after a stint it was as if they were 3kw fires. Yet the women seemed to be able to put up with it as well as the men so no differences there.
In discussing the matter with another team manager at a later race, he too reckoned that women had certain distinct advantages over men in endurance racing, although one would assume that managing was one concern. He felt that for outright speed men had a slight advantage, but in a race there was little if anything to choose between them.
Paul_M3 said:
<snip>
My unprofessional views echo this one:
"According to Dr Riccardo Ceccarelli, who offers medical support to the Toro Rosso and Lotus F1 teams - and has set up a centre called Formula Medicine which conducts research into how an F1 driver can train to the optimum - strength is not as important as many people think. They may have 30% less muscle so they have to work hard, but there's no reason why females can't get strong enough to race an F1 car.
"There is a big lack of culture in Formula 1," said Ceccarelli. "Too many drivers focus on physical strength and not enough on the mental side. "Yes, you need the strong muscles in the neck and upper body so you can have the energy to drive without any tiredness, but once you reach a certain level - there's no more benefit. There's no point putting on extra muscle. If women are capable to fly fighter planes, they should be able to drive an F1 car.
"Endurance training, rather than weight training, then becomes key. The heart will become bigger, which pumps more blood to the brain. That in turn improves the efficiency of the brain and improves the driver's ability to perform all the tasks he needs to perform in the cockpit. Slowly, drivers are coming round to this idea but there's a still long way to go. To achieve the optimum in training, our research shows a driver needs to spend just 30% of their time on physical training and the other 70% on brain training. If you can train the brain to be more efficient, it's easier to multi-task and that will make the bigger difference in terms of performance."
When Catherine Legge tested a formula one (albeit quite a while ago) car she said it was easier to drive than her Champ Car at the time. Although the cornering forces were not as high in the Champ car, the acceleration and braking forces were similar.
You say that you don't think F1 drivers are fitter / stronger than they need to be. I'd argue that half the time they finish the race and look like they've just been for a leisurely walk. Even Brundle has jokingly commented how much it annoys him.
As you well know Derek, drivers used to get out of the cars and collapse due to exhaustion in the older days. Now they normally look like they could do another 2 hour stint!
I don't think the Regulations need to be changed to allow women to compete.I just think that statistically it's much less likely for a female to have the ability required to earn a place in F1.
Only a tiny fraction of male drivers are good enough to make it to F1, and with so few females in the lower formulae it's no real surprise we haven't seen a female superstar yet.
It's an interesting discussion, and I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
I concur with the view put forward in this post, that women are not necessarily disadvantaged physically in order to compete in higher forms of motorsport, particularly F1. In fact, I think a strong argument could be put forth in favour of the bodily characteristics of women being advantageous for driving an F1 car. Male F1 drivers do not have a typical male physique and indeed resemble more of a hybrid of a male/female physique. My unprofessional views echo this one:
"According to Dr Riccardo Ceccarelli, who offers medical support to the Toro Rosso and Lotus F1 teams - and has set up a centre called Formula Medicine which conducts research into how an F1 driver can train to the optimum - strength is not as important as many people think. They may have 30% less muscle so they have to work hard, but there's no reason why females can't get strong enough to race an F1 car.
"There is a big lack of culture in Formula 1," said Ceccarelli. "Too many drivers focus on physical strength and not enough on the mental side. "Yes, you need the strong muscles in the neck and upper body so you can have the energy to drive without any tiredness, but once you reach a certain level - there's no more benefit. There's no point putting on extra muscle. If women are capable to fly fighter planes, they should be able to drive an F1 car.
"Endurance training, rather than weight training, then becomes key. The heart will become bigger, which pumps more blood to the brain. That in turn improves the efficiency of the brain and improves the driver's ability to perform all the tasks he needs to perform in the cockpit. Slowly, drivers are coming round to this idea but there's a still long way to go. To achieve the optimum in training, our research shows a driver needs to spend just 30% of their time on physical training and the other 70% on brain training. If you can train the brain to be more efficient, it's easier to multi-task and that will make the bigger difference in terms of performance."
When Catherine Legge tested a formula one (albeit quite a while ago) car she said it was easier to drive than her Champ Car at the time. Although the cornering forces were not as high in the Champ car, the acceleration and braking forces were similar.
You say that you don't think F1 drivers are fitter / stronger than they need to be. I'd argue that half the time they finish the race and look like they've just been for a leisurely walk. Even Brundle has jokingly commented how much it annoys him.
As you well know Derek, drivers used to get out of the cars and collapse due to exhaustion in the older days. Now they normally look like they could do another 2 hour stint!
I don't think the Regulations need to be changed to allow women to compete.I just think that statistically it's much less likely for a female to have the ability required to earn a place in F1.
Only a tiny fraction of male drivers are good enough to make it to F1, and with so few females in the lower formulae it's no real surprise we haven't seen a female superstar yet.
It's an interesting discussion, and I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
However, the most significant point in this whole discussion is this: the fact that there are less women drivers in F1 is due to the classic 'pyramid effect' of less women in lower formulae compared to men. I believe it is so significant, that it is the only point that limit women's potential being discovered in motorsport. There are a myriad of sociological reasons for this, including the classic gender roles.
Edited by Dr Z on Tuesday 31st March 09:32
don't agree..
racing in LMS etc is somewhat different, you rarely get any wheel to wheel racing, it's all about strategy and consistency.
F1 is not like that so much, you actually have to race the guy infront (although nothing like as much as GP2 etc.)
for whatever reason, Women do not do as well in a dogfight, I have no idea why, but that's the way it is at all levels of motorsport.
seen it all the time, if you get a 50/50 for the next corner, 99.99999% of the time, the woman will bail first (or go off).
racing in LMS etc is somewhat different, you rarely get any wheel to wheel racing, it's all about strategy and consistency.
F1 is not like that so much, you actually have to race the guy infront (although nothing like as much as GP2 etc.)
for whatever reason, Women do not do as well in a dogfight, I have no idea why, but that's the way it is at all levels of motorsport.
seen it all the time, if you get a 50/50 for the next corner, 99.99999% of the time, the woman will bail first (or go off).
BritishRacinGrin said:
callyman said:
Alonso and Button said they were happy with the progress made since Australia.....did I miss something?
Catching and passing cars for points paying positions, and doing so with a striking performance advantage in the corners over the Force Indias, for instance. The car looks great, and the McLaren hasn't looked great for the last couple of years. The power unit performance and reliability needs work, but the chassis looks well sorted. It won't be long now IMO.callyman said:
BritishRacinGrin said:
callyman said:
Alonso and Button said they were happy with the progress made since Australia.....did I miss something?
Catching and passing cars for points paying positions, and doing so with a striking performance advantage in the corners over the Force Indias, for instance. The car looks great, and the McLaren hasn't looked great for the last couple of years. The power unit performance and reliability needs work, but the chassis looks well sorted. It won't be long now IMO.callyman said:
BritishRacinGrin said:
callyman said:
Alonso and Button said they were happy with the progress made since Australia.....did I miss something?
Catching and passing cars for points paying positions, and doing so with a striking performance advantage in the corners over the Force Indias, for instance. The car looks great, and the McLaren hasn't looked great for the last couple of years. The power unit performance and reliability needs work, but the chassis looks well sorted. It won't be long now IMO.Scuffers said:
don't agree..
racing in LMS etc is somewhat different, you rarely get any wheel to wheel racing, it's all about strategy and consistency.
F1 is not like that so much, you actually have to race the guy infront (although nothing like as much as GP2 etc.)
for whatever reason, Women do not do as well in a dogfight, I have no idea why, but that's the way it is at all levels of motorsport.
seen it all the time, if you get a 50/50 for the next corner, 99.99999% of the time, the woman will bail first (or go off).
Which is odd, if you have ever witnessed first hand other sports such as field hockey, where the women's game is played just as hard as the mens game.racing in LMS etc is somewhat different, you rarely get any wheel to wheel racing, it's all about strategy and consistency.
F1 is not like that so much, you actually have to race the guy infront (although nothing like as much as GP2 etc.)
for whatever reason, Women do not do as well in a dogfight, I have no idea why, but that's the way it is at all levels of motorsport.
seen it all the time, if you get a 50/50 for the next corner, 99.99999% of the time, the woman will bail first (or go off).
So much of this debate is skewed by the drastically small pool of women drivers in motorsport. It makes generalisation very difficult.
I suspect that a woman F1 driver will make it at some point. She'll have just as much talent, if not more, than Michelle Mouton and will adopt a ruthless take no prisoners attitude that would make Margaret Thatcher proud. She'll have to fight innuendo and pretty horrible slurs all her career as her success will threaten many men. Which is sad, but inevitable.
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