The Official 2015 Malaysian Grand Prix Thread ***Spoilers**
Discussion
Leithen said:
Which is odd, if you have ever witnessed first hand other sports such as field hockey, where the women's game is played just as hard as the mens game.
So much of this debate is skewed by the drastically small pool of women drivers in motorsport. It makes generalisation very difficult.
I suspect that a woman F1 driver will make it at some point. She'll have just as much talent, if not more, than Michelle Mouton and will adopt a ruthless take no prisoners attitude that would make Margaret Thatcher proud. She'll have to fight innuendo and pretty horrible slurs all her career as her success will threaten many men. Which is sad, but inevitable.
Not the same, you don't get mixed hockey games do you?So much of this debate is skewed by the drastically small pool of women drivers in motorsport. It makes generalisation very difficult.
I suspect that a woman F1 driver will make it at some point. She'll have just as much talent, if not more, than Michelle Mouton and will adopt a ruthless take no prisoners attitude that would make Margaret Thatcher proud. She'll have to fight innuendo and pretty horrible slurs all her career as her success will threaten many men. Which is sad, but inevitable.
Michelle Mouton is a case in point, rallying is against the clock.
Actually, you might want to read up on her own thoughts about women in f1, you might be surprised.
Thinking a bit more about the race I think without the SC Merc would have been in with a very good shout of winning (even with the Ferrari being kinder to the tyres). Merc would still have had to do 3 stops though.
When Lewis ran the medium tyres he cut the gab to Seb from 24 to ~14 seconds. By running the first stint even 5 laps longer would have meant running the mediums (even the worn ones having messed up Friday running and qualifying on Sat) at the last stint instead.
All a bit meaningless I know as we don't know how hard Seb was pushing etc etc but something to kill the time between GP's.
When Lewis ran the medium tyres he cut the gab to Seb from 24 to ~14 seconds. By running the first stint even 5 laps longer would have meant running the mediums (even the worn ones having messed up Friday running and qualifying on Sat) at the last stint instead.
All a bit meaningless I know as we don't know how hard Seb was pushing etc etc but something to kill the time between GP's.
Smollet said:
callyman said:
BritishRacinGrin said:
callyman said:
Alonso and Button said they were happy with the progress made since Australia.....did I miss something?
Catching and passing cars for points paying positions, and doing so with a striking performance advantage in the corners over the Force Indias, for instance. The car looks great, and the McLaren hasn't looked great for the last couple of years. The power unit performance and reliability needs work, but the chassis looks well sorted. It won't be long now IMO.In Oz Button mentioned how this year's car handled better than last year's and so much more confident with ramping up the downforce. Last year's car was so top heavy with DF that it stalled (in the aero sense). Too much DF can stall - no DF generated - and the car had the knack of understeering mid-corner.
Scuffers said:
Not the same, you don't get mixed hockey games do you?
Michelle Mouton is a case in point, rallying is against the clock.
Actually, you might want to read up on her own thoughts about women in f1, you might be surprised.
I've read and heard a number of interviews of hers. She is on record as saying something along the lines of doubting women would ultimately succeed in the wheel to wheel cut and thrust of circuit racing. I think she's wrong - I've played and ref'ed field hockey games where I was happy to leave in one piece.... Far larger pool of players. If enough women enter the sport, the tough ones make it to the top. Michelle Mouton is a case in point, rallying is against the clock.
Actually, you might want to read up on her own thoughts about women in f1, you might be surprised.
I came across a few hockey players who would make Brad Haddin blush.
Leithen said:
I suspect that a woman F1 driver will make it at some point.
The argument is not whether a woman will make it into F1 on merit at some point but whether women will be able to compete equally with men.I used to run an F1 Fanzine and included spoof interviews with celebrities, especially after they had said or done something rather silly.
I 'interviewed' the most successful female F1 driver ever and I got a hefty response, mostly, if not entirely initially, from women. Most enjoyed it, most called it sexist (which it was, obviously) but none suggested that women could compete on equal footing to men. The following race I published an interview with one of the women correspondents, this time for real, and with her permission. The inbox then filled up with men (as far as I could tell) having a go at me for being unkind to women. My feeling was that this was patronising.
The woman I really interviewed was into karts and had raced in Caterham 7s, and quite successfully, so knew to an extent what she was talking about. A little while later, a matter of weeks, I interviewed the female LMES drivers and broached the subject of my fanzine to one and she reckoned that the karter was spot on.
Women are different to men. To suggest it is down merely to physique is wrong, but strength and endurance matters. The forces on the body of an F1 driver are tremendous. Fair enough, some of it is nurture, such as dancing backwards, but there is nature to content with.
If we want women to have an equal chance as men to get a top seat in F1 then the regs will have to be modified considerably.
Derek Smith said:
If we want women to have an equal chance as men to get a top seat in F1 then the regs will have to be modified considerably.
Derek, genuine question: If you honestly believe the regs would be modified CONSIDERABLY, how did Susie Wolff do 89 laps (160% race distance) at the 2013 young drivers test with no significant issues?She's not a top class driver by any stretch, nor I imagine is she as fit and strong as she could be given the incentive of a 'proper' F1 drive.
Paul_M3 said:
Derek Smith said:
If we want women to have an equal chance as men to get a top seat in F1 then the regs will have to be modified considerably.
Derek, genuine question: If you honestly believe the regs would be modified CONSIDERABLY, how did Susie Wolff do 89 laps (160% race distance) at the 2013 young drivers test with no significant issues?She's not a top class driver by any stretch, nor I imagine is she as fit and strong as she could be given the incentive of a 'proper' F1 drive.
she is (as 1st class racers go) rubbish, I am sure she's a lovely person, etc etc, but she's no racer, and not for lack of opportunity.
Pretty sure I could do 89 laps in an F1 car without issue, (done 3 hour driving stints before no problem), yes, I would not be setting any lap records, but then again, neither was she.
In fact, I bet if you put some of the club racers from PH in a race against her, she would lose badly.
Scuffers said:
Paul_M3 said:
Derek Smith said:
If we want women to have an equal chance as men to get a top seat in F1 then the regs will have to be modified considerably.
Derek, genuine question: If you honestly believe the regs would be modified CONSIDERABLY, how did Susie Wolff do 89 laps (160% race distance) at the 2013 young drivers test with no significant issues?She's not a top class driver by any stretch, nor I imagine is she as fit and strong as she could be given the incentive of a 'proper' F1 drive.
she is (as 1st class racers go) rubbish, I am sure she's a lovely person, etc etc, but she's no racer, and not for lack of opportunity.
Pretty sure I could do 89 laps in an F1 car without issue, (done 3 hour driving stints before no problem), yes, I would not be setting any lap records, but then again, neither was she.
In fact, I bet if you put some of the club racers from PH in a race against her, she would lose badly.
I never said she was fast. In fact I said clearly said she "wasn't as top class driver by any stretch". I was merely commenting on the number of laps completed at a pace fast enough to be similar in terms of physical effort to that of a grand prix.
My whole point was that I do not believe the physical demands of a modern F1 car are as high as some people are making out. (and certainly not high enough to require major rule changes before a woman would be able to compete fairly against a man)
Derek Smith said:
Leithen said:
I suspect that a woman F1 driver will make it at some point.
The argument is not whether a woman will make it into F1 on merit at some point but whether women will be able to compete equally with men.Will the future F1 field match global male/female ratios? I doubt it, but I believe the presence of women will become commonplace at some point.
Paul_M3 said:
Which is pretty much my point.
I never said she was fast. In fact I said clearly said she "wasn't as top class driver by any stretch". I was merely commenting on the number of laps completed at a pace fast enough to be similar in terms of physical effort to that of a grand prix.
My whole point was that I do not believe the physical demands of a modern F1 car are as high as some people are making out. (and certainly not high enough to require major rule changes before a woman would be able to compete fairly against a man)
Ah, ok, we agree then!I never said she was fast. In fact I said clearly said she "wasn't as top class driver by any stretch". I was merely commenting on the number of laps completed at a pace fast enough to be similar in terms of physical effort to that of a grand prix.
My whole point was that I do not believe the physical demands of a modern F1 car are as high as some people are making out. (and certainly not high enough to require major rule changes before a woman would be able to compete fairly against a man)
Leithen said:
Not trying to be obtuse Derek, but surely if a woman makes it into F1 "on merit" at some point, then she is competing equally with men?
Will the future F1 field match global male/female ratios? I doubt it, but I believe the presence of women will become commonplace at some point.
The thing is that there is overlap between men and women. There is, somewhere, some woman who could be a fast enough driver to get a place on the grid. But, equally, or rather not equally, there is a much greater number of men who could be fast enough to get a place on the grid. I have no idea how large that number would be.Will the future F1 field match global male/female ratios? I doubt it, but I believe the presence of women will become commonplace at some point.
If we stick with the men, then only a small % of those able physically to driver the car for the whole race will have all the other characteristics necessary to make it to the grid, everything from pushy parents, to living near a circuit, to not being tempted by other sports. The list is not endless, but it is long.
Put those hurdles in front of single woman and you can see that the odds are against her. However, sooner or later one will probably make it but, as the pool is much smaller, the probability of her being another Senna is unlikely. But, maybe, possible of course.
But what are the odds?
There are no significant advantages to being female that I'm aware of, other than the somewhat patronising suggestion of PR. Someone mentioned small size but that has both advantages and disadvantages, otherwise we'd see the vast majority or drivers being under 5'4", cause there's enough available. So it is hardly fair and equal.
Paul_M3 said:
Derek, genuine question: If you honestly believe the regs would be modified CONSIDERABLY, how did Susie Wolff do 89 laps (160% race distance) at the 2013 young drivers test with no significant issues?
She's not a top class driver by any stretch, nor I imagine is she as fit and strong as she could be given the incentive of a 'proper' F1 drive.
I'm not sure why you've capitalised considerably. There are quite a number of regulations with regards to the construction of an F1 car and they all interlink, so if we have, for instance, a limit on turning forces at the wheel, then we'd need a limit on the size of the wheel. A limit on cornering forces would be much more difficult probably as it is not a function of, say, just the tyres. What about acceleration and braking?She's not a top class driver by any stretch, nor I imagine is she as fit and strong as she could be given the incentive of a 'proper' F1 drive.
As regards the young drivers' test: she put in a creditable lap time of just 6 seconds slower than the fastest race lap of the 2013 GP, a quite remarkable time. But how often? I don't know but I would not expect her to put in a race time.
But you are asking specifics. I think there will be a woman on the grid some time. However, that does not alter the fact that they are at a disadvantage and will never compete equally with me in the current set-up of F1.
We see athletes who were born and brought up at altitude excel at long distance running events. This does not mean that on occasion some bloke born down a well will be unable to compete with them, but it is unlikely. With special technical training methods, the advantage of these LD runners from altitude can be lessened, perhaps even eliminated, but the point is that if the same advantages of training were extended to those from poorer countries with lots of lumpy bits, then they would be able to capitalise on their physical advantages.
I don't know if Wolff has any particular advantage over other women pursuing a career in F1 - can't think of one at the moment - but we are talking about one woman.
I know it's not rugby or cycling, but when we talk about the top 0.1% then every advantage matters.
Derek Smith said:
There are no significant advantages to being female that I'm aware of, other than the somewhat patronising suggestion of PR. Someone mentioned small size but that has both advantages and disadvantages, otherwise we'd see the vast majority or drivers being under 5'4", cause there's enough available. So it is hardly fair and equal.
Size and weight DO have there advantages 
Derek,
A lot of this discussion seems to revolve around what you or I feel is 'equal' competition, and whether that justifies rule changes or a separate championship.
Initially in your last post you are talking about the probability of a woman overcoming all the hurdles a man has to. Just because the chance of a woman doing this is statistically smaller (purely because of the lower numbers in motorsport as a whole), I can't see how it means they are not competing equally.
Likewise, they have the disadvantage of naturally less strength. However this is easily overcome by training. Again, just because they have to work a bit harder it doesn't mean they aren't competing equally. On the flip side they won't have to work so hard to keep their size / weight down.
You mentioned athletics, so lets compare it to athletics. It's no secret that most of the record holders for certain running distances are of African origin. You can argue whether this is genetics, upbringing, society or whatever. The fact is that people of African origin seem to have some sort of advantage. (However small)
By your logic, would you therefore say that people of European origin are not competing with them equally?
As you think the F1 regs would need to be changed to make it equal for women, should Europeans get a head start in athletic races to make it equal?
(I'm being slightly silly here, but you can hopefully see the point I'm trying to make)
The fact is that in many different sports, people of different origins or nationalities may have some underlying natural advantage. It doesn't mean others can't overcome their own disadvantages to still win, and it certainly doesn't mean that people say they aren't competing equally.
I'm also curious at what point in the motorsport hierarchy is your personal cut-off point for 'equal competition' between males / females?
I assume you are happy that female touring car drivers compete with men equally? What about endurance sportscars?
Female Indycar drivers theoretically must be competing equally because one of them has won a race.
Now here's where I'm going with this: Let's say (for arguments sake) you think that females are still competing fairly and equally in GP3. One of them wins the championship because of their natural speed and talent, and then gets offered a drive in F1.
Would you honestly say it's no longer a fair / equal competition just because they (may) have to spend an extra few hours in the gym each week from now on?
A lot of this discussion seems to revolve around what you or I feel is 'equal' competition, and whether that justifies rule changes or a separate championship.
Initially in your last post you are talking about the probability of a woman overcoming all the hurdles a man has to. Just because the chance of a woman doing this is statistically smaller (purely because of the lower numbers in motorsport as a whole), I can't see how it means they are not competing equally.
Likewise, they have the disadvantage of naturally less strength. However this is easily overcome by training. Again, just because they have to work a bit harder it doesn't mean they aren't competing equally. On the flip side they won't have to work so hard to keep their size / weight down.
You mentioned athletics, so lets compare it to athletics. It's no secret that most of the record holders for certain running distances are of African origin. You can argue whether this is genetics, upbringing, society or whatever. The fact is that people of African origin seem to have some sort of advantage. (However small)
By your logic, would you therefore say that people of European origin are not competing with them equally?
As you think the F1 regs would need to be changed to make it equal for women, should Europeans get a head start in athletic races to make it equal?
(I'm being slightly silly here, but you can hopefully see the point I'm trying to make)
The fact is that in many different sports, people of different origins or nationalities may have some underlying natural advantage. It doesn't mean others can't overcome their own disadvantages to still win, and it certainly doesn't mean that people say they aren't competing equally.
I'm also curious at what point in the motorsport hierarchy is your personal cut-off point for 'equal competition' between males / females?
I assume you are happy that female touring car drivers compete with men equally? What about endurance sportscars?
Female Indycar drivers theoretically must be competing equally because one of them has won a race.
Now here's where I'm going with this: Let's say (for arguments sake) you think that females are still competing fairly and equally in GP3. One of them wins the championship because of their natural speed and talent, and then gets offered a drive in F1.
Would you honestly say it's no longer a fair / equal competition just because they (may) have to spend an extra few hours in the gym each week from now on?
007 VXR said:
Derek Smith said:
There are no significant advantages to being female that I'm aware of, other than the somewhat patronising suggestion of PR. Someone mentioned small size but that has both advantages and disadvantages, otherwise we'd see the vast majority or drivers being under 5'4", cause there's enough available. So it is hardly fair and equal.
Size and weight DO have there advantages Derek, why is the PR angle patronising? There is clear value in having a successful female F1 driver for some markets, just as Alonso, Perez or Hamilton have marketability.
dr_gn said:
When you've currently got about a 7 second per lap discrepancy between the fastest and slowest cars, why worry about having a two-tier championship for women? It's F1: it's not even a level playing field for the current grid of male drivers.
that's a red herringthe current gap is not down to the drivers but the combination of driver and car.
put Alonso or Hamilton in the Marussia and they would still be several seconds off the pace.
Scuffers said:
dr_gn said:
When you've currently got about a 7 second per lap discrepancy between the fastest and slowest cars, why worry about having a two-tier championship for women? It's F1: it's not even a level playing field for the current grid of male drivers.
that's a red herringthe current gap is not down to the drivers but the combination of driver and car.
put Alonso or Hamilton in the Marussia and they would still be several seconds off the pace.
dr_gn said:
That's exactly my point: Currently, if you put a half decent woman driver in the best car they would beat most male drivers by default, simply because of the car. So how can you possibly "level the playing field" to compensate for gender, when the field is already massively skewed (and probably always will be in F1)?
Not sure that's true either.you could put max Chilton in a merc and he would still be nowhere.
Scuffers said:
dr_gn said:
That's exactly my point: Currently, if you put a half decent woman driver in the best car they would beat most male drivers by default, simply because of the car. So how can you possibly "level the playing field" to compensate for gender, when the field is already massively skewed (and probably always will be in F1)?
Not sure that's true either.you could put max Chilton in a merc and he would still be nowhere.
Given enough of a car advantage, anyone could win in F1.
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