Renault chief calls Newey a liar
Discussion
I don't really know what to think about this. It certainly is unseemly. One thing is for certain though, and that is that this is a planned response, one that's originated not from Horner but higher up.
I thought that RBR thinks it has a lever, one that they can use to gain an advantage, the suspicion being that this would enable them to negate the advantage of the Merc engined cars to a great extent. If so, then one might have thought they'd need Renault on their side. Internal spats, where the two sides are saying different things, is not the way to force Ecclestone to allow major modifications.
If RBR want to leave the sport with some degree of credibility then they are preparing their case. Are they trying to get Renault to do the same?
Are they concerned about Honda? Is it a way to dump Renault at the end of the season and go for the only alternative they have? Why now though? I would have waited until its advantage over the Renault are more obvious.
As I say, I can't figure out what is going on. There are too many alternatives at the moment. All I do know is that this is not good for the sport. One possibility is that the value of CVC's shares in any floatation will be hit by the possibility of RBR leaving and they are looking to buy it out.
Not good news for F1 whatever is happening.
I thought that RBR thinks it has a lever, one that they can use to gain an advantage, the suspicion being that this would enable them to negate the advantage of the Merc engined cars to a great extent. If so, then one might have thought they'd need Renault on their side. Internal spats, where the two sides are saying different things, is not the way to force Ecclestone to allow major modifications.
If RBR want to leave the sport with some degree of credibility then they are preparing their case. Are they trying to get Renault to do the same?
Are they concerned about Honda? Is it a way to dump Renault at the end of the season and go for the only alternative they have? Why now though? I would have waited until its advantage over the Renault are more obvious.
As I say, I can't figure out what is going on. There are too many alternatives at the moment. All I do know is that this is not good for the sport. One possibility is that the value of CVC's shares in any floatation will be hit by the possibility of RBR leaving and they are looking to buy it out.
Not good news for F1 whatever is happening.
RBR splits with Renault and gets Honda on board.
RBR sells TorroRosso to Renault for 1 euro as part of the compensation for ending the contract early.
Renault gets back to running it's own PU development program instead of being dictated to by RBR
Torro Rosso improve (maybe)
You read it here first.
RBR sells TorroRosso to Renault for 1 euro as part of the compensation for ending the contract early.
Renault gets back to running it's own PU development program instead of being dictated to by RBR
Torro Rosso improve (maybe)
You read it here first.
I'm with Renault on this
Yes, they've had a tough 12 months, but over the last 20 years they've had more championship wins than Ferrari,Mercedes,Toyota,BMW,Cosworth, Honda etc
I hope to see Red Bull - VW having the same issues as Honda in the future, whilst a Renault wins the title again.
Yes, they've had a tough 12 months, but over the last 20 years they've had more championship wins than Ferrari,Mercedes,Toyota,BMW,Cosworth, Honda etc
I hope to see Red Bull - VW having the same issues as Honda in the future, whilst a Renault wins the title again.
Interesting comment re RB links with VW in other areas as there was something about VW/VAG planning on entering F1 in the next couple of years or so, at the end of last year, so maybe RB knows something we don't and plans are afoot? VW/VAG with their large profits can afford to do F1 particularly with their experience in LM, etc. they must be half way there.
Jim
Jim
stevesingo said:
RBR splits with Renault and gets Honda on board.
(maybe)
You read it here first.
Can you imaging how the Honda board/engineers would react if CH started slagging off them in the way he does Renault? (maybe)
You read it here first.
Will McLaren allow Redbull to be a 'works' team? no, they'll be a customer team. Not sure redbull will be happy being a customer.
stevesingo said:
RBR splits with Renault and gets Honda on board.
RBR sells TorroRosso to Renault for 1 euro as part of the compensation for ending the contract early.
Renault gets back to running it's own PU development program instead of being dictated to by RBR
Torro Rosso improve (maybe)
You read it here first.
This. With the only bit in debate being whether it's Honda/VW/AudiRBR sells TorroRosso to Renault for 1 euro as part of the compensation for ending the contract early.
Renault gets back to running it's own PU development program instead of being dictated to by RBR
Torro Rosso improve (maybe)
You read it here first.
marshall100 said:
stevesingo said:
RBR splits with Renault and gets Honda on board.
RBR sells TorroRosso to Renault for 1 euro as part of the compensation for ending the contract early.
Renault gets back to running it's own PU development program instead of being dictated to by RBR
Torro Rosso improve (maybe)
You read it here first.
This. With the only bit in debate being whether it's Honda/VW/AudiRBR sells TorroRosso to Renault for 1 euro as part of the compensation for ending the contract early.
Renault gets back to running it's own PU development program instead of being dictated to by RBR
Torro Rosso improve (maybe)
You read it here first.
At the moment they're s
t and no one wants st. If they get good, McLaren get good and McLaren aren't going to want to give RBR a successful PU when they're competing against each other.
It's Renault or bringing in a new supplier. I cannot see a situation at all where RBR end up with a PU current on the grid other than Renault.
If Honda wanted to buy a team they would have done so already. I don't think they have the stomach for it.
Far as VAG go, don't make me laugh, they will never commit to F1. The last time they flirted with it they were insisting on 4 pot engines. Once they bowed out (again) we were able to go v6.
Either RB stick with Renault on the basis they can find no other partner or they manage to get someone like Hyundai involved. This would probably mean Renault leaving, as they wouldn't be able to make it pay by supplying mid grid teams like STR. Even then given how hard Renault, ferrari and now Honda are finding it to build a good engine who would want to get involved? What would be in it for Hyundai? Especially if they had early problems and RB throw them under the bus as they are doing to Renault.
Horner is squealing like a stuck pig because that's exactly what he is - good and properly stuck.
Far as VAG go, don't make me laugh, they will never commit to F1. The last time they flirted with it they were insisting on 4 pot engines. Once they bowed out (again) we were able to go v6.
Either RB stick with Renault on the basis they can find no other partner or they manage to get someone like Hyundai involved. This would probably mean Renault leaving, as they wouldn't be able to make it pay by supplying mid grid teams like STR. Even then given how hard Renault, ferrari and now Honda are finding it to build a good engine who would want to get involved? What would be in it for Hyundai? Especially if they had early problems and RB throw them under the bus as they are doing to Renault.
Horner is squealing like a stuck pig because that's exactly what he is - good and properly stuck.
I know its tough luck- and well done to Merc for nailing this formula.
Is it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
Is it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
MiniMan64 said:
It will not be Honda.
At the moment they're st and no one wants st.
If they get good, McLaren get good and McLaren aren't going to want to give RBR a successful PU when they're competing against each other.
It's Renault or bringing in a new supplier. I cannot see a situation at all where RBR end up with a PU current on the grid other than Renault.
Does McLaren have a veto on who else Honda supplies? I doubt it.At the moment they're s
t and no one wants st. If they get good, McLaren get good and McLaren aren't going to want to give RBR a successful PU when they're competing against each other.
It's Renault or bringing in a new supplier. I cannot see a situation at all where RBR end up with a PU current on the grid other than Renault.
If Honda think they will get more success with another team why would the choose to not supply them? Honda will see little value in supplying the likes of Manor, they will be better served to supply front running teams.
Remember, McLaren get the engines for free right now, they are hardly in a position to dictate terms with Honda. If they try, they will be in the same boat as RBR.
Remember, Honda dropped Williams pretty quickly in 1987 despite Williams winning the WDC and WCC with Honda.
Henry Fiddleton said:
I know its tough luck- and well done to Merc for nailing this formula.
Is it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
Expensive - not a yearly basis to the teams compared with some times in the past according to Pat Symonds. Each individual PU maybe, but annually, noIs it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
Complex - yes, one PU supplier has got on top of the complexity, others have the same chance if they are good enough. Isn't that something to do with the "pinnacle of motorsport" - it shouldn't be easy
Regs - 4 per year because the engine manufacturers agreed it, and contributed to that being the limit. See comments on expense.
Open development - back to expense. And how do you fairly allow Renault, Ferrari and Honda to develop without giving the same rights to Mercedes? Don't punish success when it has been achieved within the rules everyone signed up to.
Red Bull split with Renault around the same time Audi leave WEC and announce F1 entry and its own engine, VW group supply engines to Red Bull....maybe. What's to stop VW from starting it's own F1 engine development now?!
Audi have done amazing things in WEC LMP1 with the current regulations you could argue that they are more advanced than the current F1 units. They certainly put out more power with the Hybrid rules and Technology. As someone else pointed out in this thread, they already do a lot with the VW group.
Audi have done amazing things in WEC LMP1 with the current regulations you could argue that they are more advanced than the current F1 units. They certainly put out more power with the Hybrid rules and Technology. As someone else pointed out in this thread, they already do a lot with the VW group.
sirtyro said:
Audi have done amazing things in WEC LMP1 with the current regulations you could argue that they are more advanced than the current F1 units. They certainly put out more power with the Hybrid rules and Technology. As someone else pointed out in this thread, they already do a lot with the VW group.
They dominated with the diesel because the rules where new and very vague, how would they fare against established engine builders from scratch with a petrol engine is anyone's guess, you'd think they'd walk it but we all thought that with Honda!Doink said:
They dominated with the diesel because the rules where new and very vague, how would they fare against established engine builders from scratch with a petrol engine is anyone's guess, you'd think they'd walk it but we all thought that with Honda!
The R8 wasn't diesel.....K.
Henry Fiddleton said:
I know its tough luck- and well done to Merc for nailing this formula.
Is it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
the regs and expense was requested by the engine manufacturers to make them more "relevant". Renault were at the forefront of this.Is it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
4 engines is cost saving/equalisation. x4 engines at 15m each = 60m
if there was no restrictions the bigger teams would use a fresh one for each race = £300m
The engines would be designed to run lesser mileage, leading the smaller teams (who couldn't afford an engine per race) to run the engines at reduced power. Even less of a show.
Manufacturers don't want open regs, its too much of a risk. Imagine you sink all your money into a philosophy that leads you down a certain path. One of your competitors finds a completely different way that puts them streets ahead - not just a little bit but just miles and miles ahead. You look like an idiot and your tech seen as poor.
Alternatively you spend a massive, massive amount (like 3 or 4 times the amounts they have spent) to investigate several routes to go - massive, massive cost, but you end up doing it because you know your rivals will. Costs spiral to totally unbelievable levels.
With tight regs there are less potential avenues to explore, easier to keep control of costs (even though they are still big). if you are behind you can't be too far off (relatively speaking) and it should be possible to catch up - hence all the engine token rules etc. Only problem is this time around Merc played a blinder, I don't think even they expected to have such an engine advantage for so long. I think they will be caught this year engine wise (probably by Ferrari), trick is the rest of the car needs to be up to it too.
I do not think that the RB from last year or this is a match for the Merc in aero/chassis either, which only makes the situation worse. Look at the other Merc engine runners last year and this - same engine, maybe minor differences do give the factory team a little power advantage (fuels used etc) but not seconds a lap - clearly the rest of the Merc is very, very good and I don't think the RBR is close to it. At the end of the V8 era the RB had the best chassis/aero by some margin, enough to make up for the average reanult power unit. Now the engine is still not great, but they haven't the chassis or aero to keep up even if the engine was good.
Renault will come good. They will do.
Remember their wide angle V10 from 2001? They were fighting the Minardis at the start of the season and then got a victory just 2 years later with Alonso at the 2003 Hungarian GP.
Another 2 years later and they toppled the great Ferrari/Schumacher juggernaunt.
Their V8 was also down on power but clever engine mapping and great Newey aerodynamics made it an unbeatable combo.
If they get their own team - by buying out Force India or someone midfield - they'll become front runners within a few years. They have the pedigree and are too good basically.
I suspect by the end of 2015 they'll be right up there with Merc and Ferrari.
Remember their wide angle V10 from 2001? They were fighting the Minardis at the start of the season and then got a victory just 2 years later with Alonso at the 2003 Hungarian GP.
Another 2 years later and they toppled the great Ferrari/Schumacher juggernaunt.
Their V8 was also down on power but clever engine mapping and great Newey aerodynamics made it an unbeatable combo.
If they get their own team - by buying out Force India or someone midfield - they'll become front runners within a few years. They have the pedigree and are too good basically.
I suspect by the end of 2015 they'll be right up there with Merc and Ferrari.
stevesingo said:
Does McLaren have a veto on who else Honda supplies? I doubt it.
If Honda think they will get more success with another team why would the choose to not supply them? Honda will see little value in supplying the likes of Manor, they will be better served to supply front running teams.
Remember, McLaren get the engines for free right now, they are hardly in a position to dictate terms with Honda. If they try, they will be in the same boat as RBR.
Remember, Honda dropped Williams pretty quickly in 1987 despite Williams winning the WDC and WCC with Honda.
It's either a year or two years, after that Honda can and u believe they said do want to supply customer engines.If Honda think they will get more success with another team why would the choose to not supply them? Honda will see little value in supplying the likes of Manor, they will be better served to supply front running teams.
Remember, McLaren get the engines for free right now, they are hardly in a position to dictate terms with Honda. If they try, they will be in the same boat as RBR.
Remember, Honda dropped Williams pretty quickly in 1987 despite Williams winning the WDC and WCC with Honda.
VAG will never enter F1 while Bernie is in charge. I would imagine that with their links to ABT, they would be far more interested in Formula E.
And if Red Bull really do get pissed off with F1, I can see a new challenge presenting itself for Mr Newey. And if both RBR and Torro Rosso do wander off remember that the grid might lose four cars if no one wants to jump in.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bernie should be watching Formula E very carefully because in a couple of seasons it could well be killing his golden goose.
The big test will be Monaco. If the GP is a Hamiton/Mercedes snoozefest and the E race is as exciting as some of the previous ones then......
(Just to emphasis that I wanted to HATE Formula E with a passion but from a marketing and even a racing point of view, it could be very bad news for the rotten corpse that is current F1.)
And if Red Bull really do get pissed off with F1, I can see a new challenge presenting itself for Mr Newey. And if both RBR and Torro Rosso do wander off remember that the grid might lose four cars if no one wants to jump in.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bernie should be watching Formula E very carefully because in a couple of seasons it could well be killing his golden goose.
The big test will be Monaco. If the GP is a Hamiton/Mercedes snoozefest and the E race is as exciting as some of the previous ones then......
(Just to emphasis that I wanted to HATE Formula E with a passion but from a marketing and even a racing point of view, it could be very bad news for the rotten corpse that is current F1.)
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