Renault chief calls Newey a liar
Discussion
Crafty_ said:
Give over. Fe is a farce, slow cars, swapping cars mid race, fan bost, mickey mouse circuits and so on.
Its another Auto GP.
If I remember rightly Auto GP never had sponsorship from TAG or official pace cars supplied by BMW or one of the biggest teams in American Motorsport running cars. Maybe I missed that?Its another Auto GP.
It doesn't matter what we think of it and as I mentioned I wanted to loathe it, I would wager that a number of F1 teams are looking at the money that would appear to be floating around in E with envious eyes. Remember that DHL & Virgin were sponsors in F1 not so long ago and whose side pods are they on now?
The Hypno-Toad said:
VAG will never enter F1 while Bernie is in charge. I would imagine that with their links to ABT, they would be far more interested in Formula E.
And if Red Bull really do get pissed off with F1, I can see a new challenge presenting itself for Mr Newey. And if both RBR and Torro Rosso do wander off remember that the grid might lose four cars if no one wants to jump in.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bernie should be watching Formula E very carefully because in a couple of seasons it could well be killing his golden goose.
The big test will be Monaco. If the GP is a Hamiton/Mercedes snoozefest and the E race is as exciting as some of the previous ones then......
(Just to emphasis that I wanted to HATE Formula E with a passion but from a marketing and even a racing point of view, it could be very bad news for the rotten corpse that is current F1.)
To be fair, the actual race at Monaco is often not the most exciting to watch because there aren't many opportunities to overtake so without some very committed racing from a driver who has a much quicker car it is pretty processional. However, the counter is that there are some camera angles that clearly show the speed of the cars and precision of the driver so plenty of great stuff to see on the track, and some of the other shots can be very pleasant too.And if Red Bull really do get pissed off with F1, I can see a new challenge presenting itself for Mr Newey. And if both RBR and Torro Rosso do wander off remember that the grid might lose four cars if no one wants to jump in.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bernie should be watching Formula E very carefully because in a couple of seasons it could well be killing his golden goose.
The big test will be Monaco. If the GP is a Hamiton/Mercedes snoozefest and the E race is as exciting as some of the previous ones then......
(Just to emphasis that I wanted to HATE Formula E with a passion but from a marketing and even a racing point of view, it could be very bad news for the rotten corpse that is current F1.)
Formula E will have to get rid of the car changes to have any credibility for me, but there is some potential with it I suspect.
Forget Fe. Sports car racing has a lot of attractions.
The best motor race I saw was the first 90 minutes of an endurance race at Donington with the Jags and the Mercs battling it out literally wheel to wheel. Around Coppice, with the need to keep the speed up for the straight, the sense of excitement was tremendous. I have to say that I thought then that if it was like that all the time, I'd opt for it.
Six hours is too long for TV. If there was an international sports car race series, 200 miles, with nice big cars (but without those ugly fins) I might just reverse the decision I made in 1966 and go for sports car racing instead of F1.
The best motor race I saw was the first 90 minutes of an endurance race at Donington with the Jags and the Mercs battling it out literally wheel to wheel. Around Coppice, with the need to keep the speed up for the straight, the sense of excitement was tremendous. I have to say that I thought then that if it was like that all the time, I'd opt for it.
Six hours is too long for TV. If there was an international sports car race series, 200 miles, with nice big cars (but without those ugly fins) I might just reverse the decision I made in 1966 and go for sports car racing instead of F1.
Derek Smith said:
Forget Fe. Sports car racing has a lot of attractions.
The best motor race I saw was the first 90 minutes of an endurance race at Donington with the Jags and the Mercs battling it out literally wheel to wheel. Around Coppice, with the need to keep the speed up for the straight, the sense of excitement was tremendous. I have to say that I thought then that if it was like that all the time, I'd opt for it.
Six hours is too long for TV. If there was an international sports car race series, 200 miles, with nice big cars (but without those ugly fins) I might just reverse the decision I made in 1966 and go for sports car racing instead of F1.
I agree about sports cars, the format of endurance races is just not compatible with the short attention spans many audiences seem to have now so very difficult for mainstream TV. A shame for those of us that have some staying power, but it is unlikely to get mass audiences.The best motor race I saw was the first 90 minutes of an endurance race at Donington with the Jags and the Mercs battling it out literally wheel to wheel. Around Coppice, with the need to keep the speed up for the straight, the sense of excitement was tremendous. I have to say that I thought then that if it was like that all the time, I'd opt for it.
Six hours is too long for TV. If there was an international sports car race series, 200 miles, with nice big cars (but without those ugly fins) I might just reverse the decision I made in 1966 and go for sports car racing instead of F1.
As you say Derek, 200 miles may be acceptable, and would fit TV then, but it wouldn't be WEC.
The Hypno-Toad said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bernie should be watching Formula E very carefully because in a couple of seasons it could well be killing his golden goose.
The big test will be Monaco. If the GP is a Hamiton/Mercedes snoozefest and the E race is as exciting as some of the previous ones then......
(Just to emphasis that I wanted to HATE Formula E with a passion but from a marketing and even a racing point of view, it could be very bad news for the rotten corpse that is current F1.)
I'm sorry but Formula E is rubbish. I tried to like it and get into it and maybe it would be better on the full circuits when the battery tech catches up but on the street circuits I was bored.The big test will be Monaco. If the GP is a Hamiton/Mercedes snoozefest and the E race is as exciting as some of the previous ones then......
(Just to emphasis that I wanted to HATE Formula E with a passion but from a marketing and even a racing point of view, it could be very bad news for the rotten corpse that is current F1.)
If Bernie gets his way and they ditch the hybrid and bring back a proper sounding engine with 3 cars per team then F1 will be back in shape. Leave the hybrid stuff with WEC and let the FIA have that as their environmental/new technology series. Does anybody watch Formula E? From a commercial point of view is it and will it ever be viable?! I hope not.
Back on topic....Newey is a good guy/genius not a liar....Renualt need to be careful.
Crafty_ said:
4 engines is cost saving/equalisation. x4 engines at 15m each = 60m
if there was no restrictions the bigger teams would use a fresh one for each race = £300m
The engines would be designed to run lesser mileage, leading the smaller teams (who couldn't afford an engine per race) to run the engines at reduced power. Even less of a show.
LOL.if there was no restrictions the bigger teams would use a fresh one for each race = £300m
The engines would be designed to run lesser mileage, leading the smaller teams (who couldn't afford an engine per race) to run the engines at reduced power. Even less of a show.
The material cost of building each engine is nothing close to £15m. The four engines this season appear to cost so much because they have to amortise the development cost across very few units. Even then the reported engine costs are between $26m and $40m per year per team. Remember that this is also for 8 race engines (2 cars) plus whatever they use through pre-season testing, so even following your logic the cost for 20 engines per year would be much less than you 'calculated'.
The engine costs for customer teams were not dramatically or proportionally cut when the engine restrictions were introduced, so there is no reason to presume the opposite if the restrictions were suddenly removed. To do so would kill the sport dead overnight.
andyps said:
Henry Fiddleton said:
I know its tough luck- and well done to Merc for nailing this formula.
Is it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
Expensive - not a yearly basis to the teams compared with some times in the past according to Pat Symonds. Each individual PU maybe, but annually, noIs it now fair to take a step back and admit these engines/ regs are killing F1?
- expensive
- complex, and only one real engine to have. Lets see what Ferrai do, but they are still miles behind.
-regs: Why 4 engines per year? It doesn't add ANYTHING to the show. Nobody cares how many engines they use.
- open up engine development; Yes Merc will be hard done by, but F1 can not carry on for a few years with this engine lead.
Anyway, terrible from Red Bull. Look forward to them having no engine supplier.
Complex - yes, one PU supplier has got on top of the complexity, others have the same chance if they are good enough. Isn't that something to do with the "pinnacle of motorsport" - it shouldn't be easy
Regs - 4 per year because the engine manufacturers agreed it, and contributed to that being the limit. See comments on expense.
Open development - back to expense. And how do you fairly allow Renault, Ferrari and Honda to develop without giving the same rights to Mercedes? Don't punish success when it has been achieved within the rules everyone signed up to.
MiniMan64 said:
Aren't Red Bull backing themselves into a huge corner here?
Falling out spectacularly with Renault will do their performance no good at all.
And they havent got any other engine options, Merc is full up, I doubt Ferrari would supply and they really aren't going to want a Honda.
The car will be even slower of it has no engine at all!
There is talk of them using a VAG sourced Audi branded engine if they decide to sever ties with Renault. Falling out spectacularly with Renault will do their performance no good at all.
And they havent got any other engine options, Merc is full up, I doubt Ferrari would supply and they really aren't going to want a Honda.
The car will be even slower of it has no engine at all!
If they do that they, they will be faced with the same situation that McLaren are in now and it will be even worse because at least Honda have built F1 engines in the past. As far as I'm aware, VAG haven't.
There is going to be a press conference with Renualt Engine MD and Horner this weekend. Should make interesting viewing
bakerstreet said:
There is talk of them using a VAG sourced Audi branded engine if they decide to sever ties with Renault.
If they do that they, they will be faced with the same situation that McLaren are in now and it will be even worse because at least Honda have built F1 engines in the past. As far as I'm aware, VAG haven't.
There is going to be a press conference with Renualt Engine MD and Horner this weekend. Should make interesting viewing
It depends on whether you count the TAG labelled Porsche engine as VAG.If they do that they, they will be faced with the same situation that McLaren are in now and it will be even worse because at least Honda have built F1 engines in the past. As far as I'm aware, VAG haven't.
There is going to be a press conference with Renualt Engine MD and Horner this weekend. Should make interesting viewing
thegreenhell said:
LOL.
The material cost of building each engine is nothing close to £15m. The four engines this season appear to cost so much because they have to amortise the development cost across very few units. Even then the reported engine costs are between $26m and $40m per year per team. Remember that this is also for 8 race engines (2 cars) plus whatever they use through pre-season testing, so even following your logic the cost for 20 engines per year would be much less than you 'calculated'.
The engine costs for customer teams were not dramatically or proportionally cut when the engine restrictions were introduced, so there is no reason to presume the opposite if the restrictions were suddenly removed. To do so would kill the sport dead overnight.
Exactly how much each engine costs and who pays what is unclear, I was using the highest values I've seen, which could possibly be unreliable.The material cost of building each engine is nothing close to £15m. The four engines this season appear to cost so much because they have to amortise the development cost across very few units. Even then the reported engine costs are between $26m and $40m per year per team. Remember that this is also for 8 race engines (2 cars) plus whatever they use through pre-season testing, so even following your logic the cost for 20 engines per year would be much less than you 'calculated'.
The engine costs for customer teams were not dramatically or proportionally cut when the engine restrictions were introduced, so there is no reason to presume the opposite if the restrictions were suddenly removed. To do so would kill the sport dead overnight.
Regardless the point stands - if they were permitted to make another 15-16 engines a year that isn't going to be free is it ? yes they can apportion R&D costs over more units, but production and construction of the engines is a time intensive, specialist task - its certainly not a mass produced factory item is it ?
No engine costs were not cut, quite the opposite, some sources claim 2014 engines doubled in price for some customer teams from the 2013 V8s.
If you let the engines manufacturers a free hand they will spend more money, thats why the original freeze on the V8s was put in place - it was all part of the agreement on those specs etc.
Crafty_ said:
thegreenhell said:
LOL.
The material cost of building each engine is nothing close to £15m. The four engines this season appear to cost so much because they have to amortise the development cost across very few units. Even then the reported engine costs are between $26m and $40m per year per team. Remember that this is also for 8 race engines (2 cars) plus whatever they use through pre-season testing, so even following your logic the cost for 20 engines per year would be much less than you 'calculated'.
The engine costs for customer teams were not dramatically or proportionally cut when the engine restrictions were introduced, so there is no reason to presume the opposite if the restrictions were suddenly removed. To do so would kill the sport dead overnight.
Exactly how much each engine costs and who pays what is unclear, I was using the highest values I've seen, which could possibly be unreliable.The material cost of building each engine is nothing close to £15m. The four engines this season appear to cost so much because they have to amortise the development cost across very few units. Even then the reported engine costs are between $26m and $40m per year per team. Remember that this is also for 8 race engines (2 cars) plus whatever they use through pre-season testing, so even following your logic the cost for 20 engines per year would be much less than you 'calculated'.
The engine costs for customer teams were not dramatically or proportionally cut when the engine restrictions were introduced, so there is no reason to presume the opposite if the restrictions were suddenly removed. To do so would kill the sport dead overnight.
Regardless the point stands - if they were permitted to make another 15-16 engines a year that isn't going to be free is it ? yes they can apportion R&D costs over more units, but production and construction of the engines is a time intensive, specialist task - its certainly not a mass produced factory item is it ?
No engine costs were not cut, quite the opposite, some sources claim 2014 engines doubled in price for some customer teams from the 2013 V8s.
If you let the engines manufacturers a free hand they will spend more money, thats why the original freeze on the V8s was put in place - it was all part of the agreement on those specs etc.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff