is F1 on its knees

is F1 on its knees

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Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
Why are people saying 'go back and watch the seasons you liked and I guarantee they'd be the same"?

Clearly, that doesn't make sense or people wouldn't have liked them.

The only true gauge of a season is how it makes you feel at the time, surely. Quite clearly the 2007 (as an example as it was mentioned before) was enjoyed by several people at the time who are not enjoying the current season at the time.

I know I enjoyed 2007 at the time because I remember enjoying it, in much the same way that I'll remember not enjoying this one much as I was bored by it. Why is that hard to grasp? confused

rdjohn

6,135 posts

194 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
These comments from DC sum up another problem.

It was almost like watching a scripted race, but one for which only Hamilton knew the lines.
He had a lot in hand, but the circumstances of the race meant he only unleashed that pace when he really needed to.
It's hard for me to understand what the drivers are going through because it is so alien to what F1 was like when I was driving.
To hear Hamilton say that going through Turn One they just have to be careful of the front tyre sounds odd to me. I have never driven a car in anger on tyres like that, so I can hear their words and try to imagine it, but it is nothing like anything I have ever dealt with.

I know Eric Mc will remind us that they had to nurse their tyres way back. But that was because they did not have the ability to swap them in 2.5 seconds, nor the technology to improve the compounds. Most road tyres are superior to the tyres they had then in terms of grip.

I do not think there is significant point in referring back to much before the millenium. A simple solution would be to have durable prime tyres with at least two mandatory pit stops to change.

Just three races into a long season, you should expect decent odds on 1,2 & 3 in the WDC & WCC. I suspect that this year it would be odds-on for Lewis, Nico & Seb with Merc, Ferrari and Williams.

Therein lies a huge problem for keeping bums in grandstands and eyes on the TV.

celicawrc

3,343 posts

149 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
How did you cope with the relatively quiet low revving engines of the mid 1980s?
The 80's V6 turbo engine's sounded awesome(with added flame!) The new ones sound utter ste.

37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
celicawrc said:
The 80's V6 turbo engine's sounded awesome(with added flame!) The new ones sound utter ste.
agreed, even the indycar v6 sounds great compared to f1

37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
37chevy said:
agreed, even the indycar v6 sounds great compared to f1
and if you really want a nice sounding v6 just look at the juno... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdSwvnE900g

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
London424 said:
Not at all...it's just me demonstrating the nonsense that the 80s/90s was somehow amazing compared to the racing we see in the last few years.

People generally believe that their 'era' was the best. The 'in my day' stories etc.

If you go back and actually watch (or read about) the races rather than think how good it was you'd be bitterly disappointed.

I will grant that the sound was massively different but if that's your measure of great racing then there nothing else I can say.
If the problem was confined to a handful of fans bhing on an internet forum it would be no big deal, but there are concerns about the current state of F1 at all levels, from fans, team owners, circuit promoters, ex-drivers, and Bernie. Those who don't see a problem must have their heads buried deep in the sand, either that or their expectations are so low that even the current crap keeps them satisfied.

trackside tripod

32 posts

166 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
The fact is that the tyres are designed not to last long so that cars have to go into the pits to change them, which gives an overtaking opportunity! It's meant to be the pinnacle of motor racing and it simply isn't any more. WEC on the other hand has fantastic racing (anybody that saw the Silverstone 6 hours the other day would testify to that!), the cars are faster than F1, there's plenty of overtaking (and I don't just mean the lesser classes either!), the technology is more meaningful, it's not so overpriced to see, and it's just a better watch which is why new manufacturers are heading to WEC rather than F1. I'd watch in full WEC, DTM and the others but like so many on this forum, F1 gets recorded and I watch the highlights. The start, the end and bits in the middle.

RDMcG

19,096 posts

206 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
Surely, with viewership falling, smaller teams marginal in terms of finance, stratospheric ticket prices, some traditional Euro venues in danger ( Italy could follow Germany out), there is indeed a serious problem in F1.

No doubt, a Lewis-Nico-Seb parade of 1-2-3. will further affect viewership. The core of the viewership will stay I suppose, but it is now too difficult for a casual viewer to take in, and the metronomic repeat of the result will exacerbate things.

I suspect some kind of remedial action will be taken if the results continue repeating. Not for "fairness" but for revenue protection for F1.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
RYH64E said:
If the problem was confined to a handful of fans bhing on an internet forum it would be no big deal, but there are concerns about the current state of F1 at all levels, from fans, team owners, circuit promoters, ex-drivers, and Bernie. Those who don't see a problem must have their heads buried deep in the sand, either that or their expectations are so low that even the current crap keeps them satisfied.
I'm not saying there aren't issues in F1. I'm saying that what you see on your screens on race day is pretty much the same as its always been. There are great races, so-so races and boring races. There always has been.

People saying that season X was brilliant is looking at things in hindsight and with the 'it was better in the past' mentality. I'm saying if you go back and watch the season now you'll find the same mix of racing.

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
celicawrc said:
Eric Mc said:
How did you cope with the relatively quiet low revving engines of the mid 1980s?
The 80's V6 turbo engine's sounded awesome(with added flame!) The new ones sound utter ste.
Like music, engine noises can sound different to different people.

I'm not very enamoured with the current engines myself - but I wasn't a great fan of the screaming V8s either. Give me a raucous V16 or H16 or a screaming V12 any day.

However, I'm not letting the current engine noise (or lack of it) ruin the event. It's just one factor.

Disastrous

10,072 posts

216 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
London424 said:
People saying that season X was brilliant is looking at things in hindsight and with the 'it was better in the past' mentality. I'm saying if you go back and watch the season now you'll find the same mix of racing.
Again,

Disastrous said:
Why are people saying 'go back and watch the seasons you liked and I guarantee they'd be the same"?

Clearly, that doesn't make sense or people wouldn't have liked them.

The only true gauge of a season is how it makes you feel at the time, surely. Quite clearly the 2007 (as an example as it was mentioned before) was enjoyed by several people at the time who are not enjoying the current season at the time.

I know I enjoyed 2007 at the time because I remember enjoying it, in much the same way that I'll remember not enjoying this one much as I was bored by it. Why is that hard to grasp? confused

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
People have fond memories of events based on what they were doing and where they were at at a certain age.

I have stacks of GPs and GP highlights on VHS cassettes dating back to the 1983 season and believe me, there were plenty of tedious races back then too.

As I said at the start of this thread, the real problems of F1 are not so much on the track but in how it is being managed - or, more accurately - being mismanaged.

troc

3,740 posts

174 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
People often hard back to previous championships when there was a dominant car to say "look, it's always been the same" but I disagree.

Take the year that Mansell was drigving for Mclaren in a vastly superior car. Rather than nurse the car around the track at the slowest possible speed to ensure a win, he kept pushing and pushing, eventually overtaking everyone to the point that Murry Walker famously worked out he would lap himself in another few laps.

So, unlike the last race, we still had the excitement of the leader actually doing something - lapping backmarkers and fighting through the field again AND we had properly entertaining commentary from en extremely excited, knowledgeable fan.

Nowadays the "race" is mostly a foregone conclusion, yes there's usually some fun to be seen further back but we don't even see or want to see the leaders any more because there's nothing happening at the sharp end. Coupled with presenters that, despite their professionalism, nothing like as charismatic as we once had (i.e. presenters who could make a boring race appear exciting) and you end up with the bore-fest you have now.

Yes there were plenty of boring races in the 90's (for example), even boring seasons as a whole, but the "show" around F1 was exciting in and of itself. That has gone - at least I feel it has.

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
troc said:
People often hard back to previous championships when there was a dominant car to say "look, it's always been the same" but I disagree.

Take the year that Mansell was drigving for Mclaren in a vastly superior car. Rather than nurse the car around the track at the slowest possible speed to ensure a win, he kept pushing and pushing, eventually overtaking everyone to the point that Murry Walker famously worked out he would lap himself in another few laps.

So, unlike the last race, we still had the excitement of the leader actually doing something - lapping backmarkers and fighting through the field again AND we had properly entertaining commentary from en extremely excited, knowledgeable fan.

Nowadays the "race" is mostly a foregone conclusion, yes there's usually some fun to be seen further back but we don't even see or want to see the leaders any more because there's nothing happening at the sharp end. Coupled with presenters that, despite their professionalism, nothing like as charismatic as we once had (i.e. presenters who could make a boring race appear exciting) and you end up with the bore-fest you have now.

Yes there were plenty of boring races in the 90's (for example), even boring seasons as a whole, but the "show" around F1 was exciting in and of itself. That has gone - at least I feel it has.
Last time Mansell drove for McLaren he was struggling to fit in it! hehe

Mansell never kept pushing. He one of things he liked doing was telling his race engineer that he was "going to sleep" and drive within himself/nurse the car. 1992 Spanish GP - after he passed he never truly went off in the distance, only when told that Schumi was closing the gap did Mansell respond; 1992 Monaco GP - he never went out to destroy the field which he should have done because had Mansell done so he would have gone on to win the race after an emergency tyre change and not finish second to Senna; and this was in the era of rock hard Goodyear's A,B,C,D compounds.

jpf

1,311 posts

275 months

Thursday 16th April 2015
quotequote all
Maybe should be a different thread, but the most epic F1 race I can remember is the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix.

Youtube, wikipedia do a nice job of telling the story of that GP. Maybe, that is what is missing in F1--lead changes, action, drama, driving at the limit.

Currently, the initial minute of a GP is the most intense and things drop off from there.

Efbe

9,251 posts

165 months

Friday 17th April 2015
quotequote all
"back in the day" you didn't even see the whole race, you only saw the top 3 cars all the way through the race.

people just expect more now. movies, cgi, better screens/resolution, better cameras, has led to people just expecting more from everything.

rdjohn

6,135 posts

194 months

Friday 17th April 2015
quotequote all
Unfortunately Bernie TV no longer seems to include Manor Racing. Their resurrection must have really upset him - having to hand over some cash and all!

Not 1 frame during FP1 - he is the shabbiest ringmaster for this circus.

Edited by rdjohn on Friday 17th April 13:54

chevronb37

6,471 posts

185 months

Friday 17th April 2015
quotequote all
DJRC said:
RYH64E said:
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
F1 isn't a hobby it's a business, a business that relies upon worldwide viewing figures to sell sponsorship, advertising, and increasingly as a marketing exercise to sell road cars. I can't see sponsors shelling out big bucks for a tiny and declining audience of anoraks who get all excited over who's running the optimum tyre strategy, or who's best at lift and coast. You may want to see an elitist, niche fanbase, but that doesn't pay the bills.

Ultimately, regardless of what you or I may think of modern day F1 (and I really don't like it), if it doesn't put bums on seats it's heading for failure. When there's not enough support in Germany for a home GP to be viable, and that at a time when Mercedes are dominating the sport, you have to ask what's next? Another Tilke track in some backwater dictatorship prepared to pay top dollar for a race no-one else wants?
You miss my point 64. If the manufacturers leave then it will evolve into something else. I care nothing if they are involved or not. I care nothing if a particular team or drive is involved or not. The point is that this racing will always exist because some blokes somewhere want to race as fast as possible. I don't care if it's watched by just me, Eric, Derek, Chevron and our dogs or if it's watched by the rest of you. I don't care if the tracks are empty. I care nothing about the spectacle of it per se. That this racing is the fastest formula will always be enough to guarantee there will be blokes competing and it will retain a fascination for me.

Blokes race. Folks want to be the fastest. That will never change nor will my fascination with it.
I’ll be right next to you, DJRC ;-)

I love racing. I spend my free time dedicated to pursuing my passion. I’m as happy watching F1 as I am BTCC, WEC, hillclimbing, historics, motorcycles or a low-key clubbie at my beloved Oulton Park. I will continue to watch F1 irrespective of almost all factors, simply because I still regard it as possessing the fastest cars (thought LMP1 is running it close…), the best drivers (see previous parenthesis) and finest technical minds (as previous).

I must confess, though, to possessing deeper concerns regarding F1 than at any point during the 30 years I’ve been watching it. There are some serious problems which strike right to the heart of the sport – and almost all are a direct or indirect result of the disastrous CVC deal. We all know the history of it but here are the primary problems as I see them:

- Price to compete. The revenue available is disproportionate to the cost of entering. This is being exacerbated by the price of fielding a competitive car rising and the revenue available from advertising and TV reducing.
- Pay-TV. The move to Sky Sports (and equivalent elsewhere) was a big mistake in my opinion. This has contributed to declining viewing figures. With that comes a reluctance for companies to use F1 as an advertising platform, and hence the cycle becomes self-perpetuating.
- Attendance prices. I went to the US GP at Austin last year – at the price of £450 for a weekend grandstand ticket. For that, I had no paddock access and two support categories. I loved COTA and I loved the weekend but for the same price I was able to do an entire trip to the Spa 24 Hours two months previously. It is stupid, stupid money.
- Casting aside its heritage. To desert places like Germany in favour of Azerbaijan is insulting to us fans. F1 needs to retain its European heartland and supplement with a sprinkling of awesome, special races further afield. Relying on the whim of governments is a risky game and for a sport which trades so heavily on its heritage, moving to countries with zero racing history in favour of the likes of Germany seems to be unsustainable.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Friday 17th April 2015
quotequote all
chevronb37 said:
I’ll be right next to you, DJRC ;-)

I love racing. I spend my free time dedicated to pursuing my passion. I’m as happy watching F1 as I am BTCC, WEC, hillclimbing, historics, motorcycles or a low-key clubbie at my beloved Oulton Park. I will continue to watch F1 irrespective of almost all factors, simply because I still regard it as possessing the fastest cars (thought LMP1 is running it close…), the best drivers (see previous parenthesis) and finest technical minds (as previous).

I must confess, though, to possessing deeper concerns regarding F1 than at any point during the 30 years I’ve been watching it. There are some serious problems which strike right to the heart of the sport – and almost all are a direct or indirect result of the disastrous CVC deal. We all know the history of it but here are the primary problems as I see them:

- Price to compete. The revenue available is disproportionate to the cost of entering. This is being exacerbated by the price of fielding a competitive car rising and the revenue available from advertising and TV reducing.
- Pay-TV. The move to Sky Sports (and equivalent elsewhere) was a big mistake in my opinion. This has contributed to declining viewing figures. With that comes a reluctance for companies to use F1 as an advertising platform, and hence the cycle becomes self-perpetuating.
- Attendance prices. I went to the US GP at Austin last year – at the price of £450 for a weekend grandstand ticket. For that, I had no paddock access and two support categories. I loved COTA and I loved the weekend but for the same price I was able to do an entire trip to the Spa 24 Hours two months previously. It is stupid, stupid money.
- Casting aside its heritage. To desert places like Germany in favour of Azerbaijan is insulting to us fans. F1 needs to retain its European heartland and supplement with a sprinkling of awesome, special races further afield. Relying on the whim of governments is a risky game and for a sport which trades so heavily on its heritage, moving to countries with zero racing history in favour of the likes of Germany seems to be unsustainable.
Indeed.

I'm concerned for the future. The BBC consider heritage so important that their intro titles are mostly the old days, right back to the origins of the WDC.

I can understand the short-termism, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. The sport is not on its knees but who can say who will even own it in the next couple of years? That's not going to encourage sponsors and other investors.

Like you, I enjoy all forms of motor racing. The last few seasons have been thoroughly exciting in the main, but for how much longer?

I don't mind pastures new, but we should have the historic European races. No French GP, no German GP, possibly no Italian rumours suggest. I can see just Monaco and a European GP soon. Would you invest is such a sport?


Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Friday 17th April 2015
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
chevronb37 said:
I’ll be right next to you, DJRC ;-)

I love racing. I spend my free time dedicated to pursuing my passion. I’m as happy watching F1 as I am BTCC, WEC, hillclimbing, historics, motorcycles or a low-key clubbie at my beloved Oulton Park. I will continue to watch F1 irrespective of almost all factors, simply because I still regard it as possessing the fastest cars (thought LMP1 is running it close…), the best drivers (see previous parenthesis) and finest technical minds (as previous).

I must confess, though, to possessing deeper concerns regarding F1 than at any point during the 30 years I’ve been watching it. There are some serious problems which strike right to the heart of the sport – and almost all are a direct or indirect result of the disastrous CVC deal. We all know the history of it but here are the primary problems as I see them:

- Price to compete. The revenue available is disproportionate to the cost of entering. This is being exacerbated by the price of fielding a competitive car rising and the revenue available from advertising and TV reducing.
- Pay-TV. The move to Sky Sports (and equivalent elsewhere) was a big mistake in my opinion. This has contributed to declining viewing figures. With that comes a reluctance for companies to use F1 as an advertising platform, and hence the cycle becomes self-perpetuating.
- Attendance prices. I went to the US GP at Austin last year – at the price of £450 for a weekend grandstand ticket. For that, I had no paddock access and two support categories. I loved COTA and I loved the weekend but for the same price I was able to do an entire trip to the Spa 24 Hours two months previously. It is stupid, stupid money.
- Casting aside its heritage. To desert places like Germany in favour of Azerbaijan is insulting to us fans. F1 needs to retain its European heartland and supplement with a sprinkling of awesome, special races further afield. Relying on the whim of governments is a risky game and for a sport which trades so heavily on its heritage, moving to countries with zero racing history in favour of the likes of Germany seems to be unsustainable.
Indeed.

I'm concerned for the future. The BBC consider heritage so important that their intro titles are mostly the old days, right back to the origins of the WDC.

I can understand the short-termism, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. The sport is not on its knees but who can say who will even own it in the next couple of years? That's not going to encourage sponsors and other investors.

Like you, I enjoy all forms of motor racing. The last few seasons have been thoroughly exciting in the main, but for how much longer?

I don't mind pastures new, but we should have the historic European races. No French GP, no German GP, possibly no Italian rumours suggest. I can see just Monaco and a European GP soon. Would you invest is such a sport?
According to Bernie Ecclestone's latest delivery of tablets of stone, a return to V8s but with capacity increased so they can produce 1,000bhp will save the sport. Apparently the last 2 years of Mercedes dominance is the trouble and is causing fans to turn off. This neatly glosses over the 4 years of dominance Red Bull had with V8s.

And surprise, surprise, Monza should pay more for the right to host a Grand Prix.

This follows his brainwave of a women's championship, which surprised coming from the man who once stated something along the lines of "women should be in whote, like other domestic appliances".

Why do I find the sport I love so hard to like?!