is F1 on its knees
Discussion
Watching historic F1 cars slipping, sliding, burning rubber, dipping under braking and drivers' arms crossed up as they try to control oversteer and understeer makes these older cars look far more interesting than more modern cars running as if they are on rails - even if the older cars are way slower.
I have to say that in the last two years the cars have looked a bit more leery compared to the previous decade but the engineers and aerodynamicists will ALWAYS try to dial out wayward handling and, as a formula progresses and the techniques involved in making the cars faster develop, the cars will become less interesting to watch.
The only solution is to keep changing the regs and throwing the designers off balance.
I have to say that in the last two years the cars have looked a bit more leery compared to the previous decade but the engineers and aerodynamicists will ALWAYS try to dial out wayward handling and, as a formula progresses and the techniques involved in making the cars faster develop, the cars will become less interesting to watch.
The only solution is to keep changing the regs and throwing the designers off balance.
DJRC said:
In Bernie's view it is bad form. They have done nothing to earn the money. They have achieved nothing. They have contributed nothing. They have provided nothing.
Why should he view them in any charitable way? They are a bunch of nobodies akin to Fortek and other numpty mobs from the one race a season days back in the 90s.
I seem to recall Bianchi scoring 2 points at Monaco, they beat Sauber and Caterham in the constructors championship, Bianci scored as many points as Maldanardo and outscored 7 other drivers, so to say they have done nothing to earn the money is simply wrong. They did what was required under the rules set out and have earned the money.Why should he view them in any charitable way? They are a bunch of nobodies akin to Fortek and other numpty mobs from the one race a season days back in the 90s.
350Matt said:
everyone has to start somewhere
and the cost of competing in F1 these days is probably about 10 times that of the 90's
Jordan had a budget of around $50M back in the early 00s and $30M of that was for the engines. Caterham were paying around $20M for their engines last year and had a budget of around $80M. No x10 mutliples of cost.and the cost of competing in F1 these days is probably about 10 times that of the 90's
jsf said:
DJRC said:
In Bernie's view it is bad form. They have done nothing to earn the money. They have achieved nothing. They have contributed nothing. They have provided nothing.
Why should he view them in any charitable way? They are a bunch of nobodies akin to Fortek and other numpty mobs from the one race a season days back in the 90s.
I seem to recall Bianchi scoring 2 points at Monaco, they beat Sauber and Caterham in the constructors championship, Bianci scored as many points as Maldanardo and outscored 7 other drivers, so to say they have done nothing to earn the money is simply wrong. They did what was required under the rules set out and have earned the money.Why should he view them in any charitable way? They are a bunch of nobodies akin to Fortek and other numpty mobs from the one race a season days back in the 90s.
StevieBee said:
The issue is that that team that won those two points in Monaco last year is not the team you see racing this year. Manor purchased the assists from the defunct Marrussia Team, that's all. The fact that its largely the same people is irrelevant.
Did they? The team that exists today came out of administration having done a deal with its creditors. Some of those creditors were not happy but were outvoted.Now I am not sure therefore whether the outfit that emerged from administration was the same one that went in or not? I dont think it is the same as buying up the assets of someone that has gone into administration but may be wrong.
troc said:
Not to mention drivers emerging from their cockpits looking shattered and sweaty from 1000 manual gear changes and not enough gym time.
Nowadays the cars just don't look to be going at 100%, the drivers emerge sprightly and ready to run a marathon and there's this *perception* that it's all too easy.
Nothing at all to do with drivers openly smoking and drinking pretty much the moment they fall out of the car back in the day?Nowadays the cars just don't look to be going at 100%, the drivers emerge sprightly and ready to run a marathon and there's this *perception* that it's all too easy.
Also I never remember hearing much about fitness and training nor do I ever remember anyone of them running marathons either.
I mean can you imagine Nigel Mansell doing that? Surely that's also part of how much more fresher they look now.
StevieBee said:
The issue is that that team that won those two points in Monaco last year is not the team you see racing this year. Manor purchased the assists from the defunct Marrussia Team, that's all. The fact that its largely the same people is irrelevant.
But are they are being paid on last years results ? if so who ever it is they are due the $$$m's
Lost soul said:
But are they are being paid on last years results ?
if so who ever it is they are due the $$$m's
Indeed. The bloke who makes the rules is complaining about the rules. if so who ever it is they are due the $$$m's
Not only that, the reason that new teams struggle to perform at the required level when building their chassis is because there is no feeder series to learn in. And who was part of the process of changing the rules to ensure that F1 wasn't challenged?
I enjoy sports car racing as well. The European Endurance Series had a thrilling finish recently. I noted that some of the cars lapped a lot slower that the leaders. I don't think that took anything away from the spectacle. In fact I'd suggest the packed start was quite impressive.
The point is, of course, that the current F1 situation is a product of Ecclestone and, to a significant extent, Mosley. If he doesn't like it then if he wants to know who to blame then all he has to do if find a mirror.
spats said:
troc said:
Not to mention drivers emerging from their cockpits looking shattered and sweaty from 1000 manual gear changes and not enough gym time.
Nowadays the cars just don't look to be going at 100%, the drivers emerge sprightly and ready to run a marathon and there's this *perception* that it's all too easy.
Nothing at all to do with drivers openly smoking and drinking pretty much the moment they fall out of the car back in the day?Nowadays the cars just don't look to be going at 100%, the drivers emerge sprightly and ready to run a marathon and there's this *perception* that it's all too easy.
Also I never remember hearing much about fitness and training nor do I ever remember anyone of them running marathons either.
I mean can you imagine Nigel Mansell doing that? Surely that's also part of how much more fresher they look now.
At the end Piquet & Prost barely broke a sweat whereas Mansell tries to milk the underdog card as per usual - I am a Mansell fan but he does has his faults and traits that I dislike.
Eric Mc said:
Watching historic F1 cars slipping, sliding, burning rubber, dipping under braking and drivers' arms crossed up as they try to control oversteer and understeer makes these older cars look far more interesting than more modern cars running as if they are on rails - even if the older cars are way slower.
I have to say that in the last two years the cars have looked a bit more leery compared to the previous decade but the engineers and aerodynamicists will ALWAYS try to dial out wayward handling and, as a formula progresses and the techniques involved in making the cars faster develop, the cars will become less interesting to watch.
Not just F1. I'm often amazed how soft the suspension looked on the cars in the 80s be it Group C Porsche 956, Group A Sierra Cosworth, etc. NASCAR these days is like watching slot cars.I have to say that in the last two years the cars have looked a bit more leery compared to the previous decade but the engineers and aerodynamicists will ALWAYS try to dial out wayward handling and, as a formula progresses and the techniques involved in making the cars faster develop, the cars will become less interesting to watch.
It was in the 1980s that the full weight of whole teams of engineers began to be thrown into F1 car design and development. When you have 400 clever people from many disciplines of engineering and science putting a huge effort into the design of a car, you are bound to get a superb device. Even the "clunkers" in modern F1 are engineering works of genius.
Before the 1980s, F1 teams were fairly small (often less than 50 people - sometimes only a handful) with limited budgets, much of the progress was by trial and error. No wonder the cars were so bad - but fantastic to watch.
Before the 1980s, F1 teams were fairly small (often less than 50 people - sometimes only a handful) with limited budgets, much of the progress was by trial and error. No wonder the cars were so bad - but fantastic to watch.
Chrisgr31 said:
StevieBee said:
The issue is that that team that won those two points in Monaco last year is not the team you see racing this year. Manor purchased the assists from the defunct Marrussia Team, that's all. The fact that its largely the same people is irrelevant.
Did they? The team that exists today came out of administration having done a deal with its creditors. Some of those creditors were not happy but were outvoted.Now I am not sure therefore whether the outfit that emerged from administration was the same one that went in or not? I dont think it is the same as buying up the assets of someone that has gone into administration but may be wrong.
As far as I know, if a company goes into administration, the owners of that company can only take it out of administration if everything's paid for in full and then it's original provenance remains intact.
Other people can buy it out of administration if creditors agree but a new company is formed.
I guess the tell-tale will be the company number. If the one that applies to this year's team team is the same as that which applied to last year's team, then they're owed the money. If not, they're not entitled to it.....unless the prize money was one the assets, that was included in the buy out.
Eric....ERIC....ERIC!!
StevieBee said:
Mmm. That's a good point.
As far as I know, if a company goes into administration, the owners of that company can only take it out of administration if everything's paid for in full and then it's original provenance remains intact.
Other people can buy it out of administration if creditors agree but a new company is formed.
I guess the tell-tale will be the company number. If the one that applies to this year's team team is the same as that which applied to last year's team, then they're owed the money. If not, they're not entitled to it.....unless the prize money was one the assets, that was included in the buy out.
Eric....ERIC....ERIC!!
You're forgetting about F1 company structures. As far as I know, if a company goes into administration, the owners of that company can only take it out of administration if everything's paid for in full and then it's original provenance remains intact.
Other people can buy it out of administration if creditors agree but a new company is formed.
I guess the tell-tale will be the company number. If the one that applies to this year's team team is the same as that which applied to last year's team, then they're owed the money. If not, they're not entitled to it.....unless the prize money was one the assets, that was included in the buy out.
Eric....ERIC....ERIC!!
Entrant vs. race team. vs. car builder vs. engineering vs. advertising, marketing & sponsorship company.
It's quite possible for a few of these to go bust, but for the "team" to continue to exist in their absence.
Edited by marshalla on Thursday 23 April 17:01
It's all very arbitrary. Even in law, a judge can look behind the "veil of incorporation" to see the true identity of an outfit if he/she wants to. They rarely do but creating a new company to replace a busted old one does not always, in law, mean that the new company is seen as completely "new" and unconnected to the old defunct entity.
Bernie will throw whatever "law" he wants whenever he wants to inconvenience somebody else.
Bernie will throw whatever "law" he wants whenever he wants to inconvenience somebody else.
I used to watch every race and qualifying from when I was about 10 year old right through till last year when I would only watch the main race this year ive missed 2 races already and not even that bothered about it.
Its dull and boring now the car look and sound s
t, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.
F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
Its dull and boring now the car look and sound s
t, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
MG CHRIS said:
I used to watch every race and qualifying from when I was about 10 year old right through till last year when I would only watch the main race this year ive missed 2 races already and not even that bothered about it.
Its dull and boring now the car look and sound st, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.
F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
I've found this season quite exciting. There has been lots happening down the field and also at the front. However, I think I know what you mean. Its dull and boring now the car look and sound s
t, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
Last season was edge of the seat stuff and some of the last few seasons have been classics, yet the old thrill seems to be missing. I missed two races last year and one this, and it hasn't really bothered me. It is a shame.
I'm not sure why. It is not that I'm getting lazy and not wanting to make the effort. I've been to more classic events and car shows in the last two years than I have for any other five, so I still enjoy cars and racing.
Derek Smith said:
MG CHRIS said:
I used to watch every race and qualifying from when I was about 10 year old right through till last year when I would only watch the main race this year ive missed 2 races already and not even that bothered about it.
Its dull and boring now the car look and sound st, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.
F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
I've found this season quite exciting. There has been lots happening down the field and also at the front. However, I think I know what you mean. Its dull and boring now the car look and sound s
t, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
Last season was edge of the seat stuff and some of the last few seasons have been classics, yet the old thrill seems to be missing. I missed two races last year and one this, and it hasn't really bothered me. It is a shame.
I'm not sure why. It is not that I'm getting lazy and not wanting to make the effort. I've been to more classic events and car shows in the last two years than I have for any other five, so I still enjoy cars and racing.
MG CHRIS said:
Derek Smith said:
MG CHRIS said:
I used to watch every race and qualifying from when I was about 10 year old right through till last year when I would only watch the main race this year ive missed 2 races already and not even that bothered about it.
Its dull and boring now the car look and sound st, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.
F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
I've found this season quite exciting. There has been lots happening down the field and also at the front. However, I think I know what you mean. Its dull and boring now the car look and sound s
t, all the fake crap drs/kers adds nothing.F1 has lost me as a viewer and I don't know anyone else that still does, wec and btcc is far more enjoyable race series to watch, easier to follow and more accessible to attend.
Last season was edge of the seat stuff and some of the last few seasons have been classics, yet the old thrill seems to be missing. I missed two races last year and one this, and it hasn't really bothered me. It is a shame.
I'm not sure why. It is not that I'm getting lazy and not wanting to make the effort. I've been to more classic events and car shows in the last two years than I have for any other five, so I still enjoy cars and racing.
BE is concerned because in 3 seasons or whatever Marussia/Manor and Caterham have done fk all. Bianchi picking up a cpl of points at Monaco is neither here not there. Olivier Panis managed to win in Monaco with a dog of a Ligier/Prost thing.
And yet he has to pay them millions. To continue to do fk all. There starts and ends Bernies problem with them.
As to the spectre of he show well ho hum so what? F1 has changed engine and drive train regs on a regular basis over the yrs. The trouble now is that bloody stupid 1.6ltr world engine bks that the FIA presumed would drag all the manufacturers in across the board. Or VAG, GM and Ford in other words.
The hybrid stuff is here to stay, this is tech manufacturers want to show off. Just have to find a way to show it all off now.
k all. Bianchi picking up a cpl of points at Monaco is neither here not there. Olivier Panis managed to win in Monaco with a dog of a Ligier/Prost thing.And yet he has to pay them millions. To continue to do f
k all. There starts and ends Bernies problem with them.As to the spectre of he show well ho hum so what? F1 has changed engine and drive train regs on a regular basis over the yrs. The trouble now is that bloody stupid 1.6ltr world engine b
ks that the FIA presumed would drag all the manufacturers in across the board. Or VAG, GM and Ford in other words.The hybrid stuff is here to stay, this is tech manufacturers want to show off. Just have to find a way to show it all off now.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff