is F1 on its knees
Discussion
I think DC actually started in F1 in 1994 and finished in 2008, so he should be able to speak most effectively about driving in the modern era; pre KERS / DRS.
If you were born in the current millennium, you probably could not give a fig what happened before 2000. Unfortunately these people are the future customers (fans) of F1.
If you were born in the current millennium, you probably could not give a fig what happened before 2000. Unfortunately these people are the future customers (fans) of F1.
Edited by rdjohn on Tuesday 12th May 20:02
rdjohn said:
DC now adds to the debate http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/32699924
Everyone seems to know there is something fundamentally wrong ith the current F1 regs
Just read this. I think he makes a lot of sense and asks the right questions. I'd really like to hear more from him as I found myself nodding in agreement the whole way through...even if there are possibly some error in his time re:fueling (post above).Everyone seems to know there is something fundamentally wrong ith the current F1 regs
rdjohn said:
I think DC actually started in F1 in 1994 and finished in 2008, so he should be able to speak most effectively about driving in the modern era; pre KERS / DRS.
Basically the refuelling era. Coming to the end of his career there were calls to make the drivers look after their cars more as the racing/spectact wasn't always great.So, a few races on and after several weeks of commentary from various pundits, all of whom seem critical of the current formula, I'm curious if those who maintain it's great and just like it always has been accept that something needs to change?
The "Official Grand Prix..." threads barely run over 10 pages
A couple of well-known recent drivers are very critical
The ad-man du jour lays into it from a sponsorship perspective
I'm sure there's been more I can't think of but everyone seems to be saying the same thing:
Too slow
s
t tyres
Not physically hard enough
No racing
A sport of management not pushing
Stage managed overtakes
These point to pretty fundamental problems, don't they?
I enjoyed coulthard's comments. Very much agree how disappointing it is when a team suddenly goes a second quicker when they need to.
Not meant as an 'I told you so' type post by the way - genuinely interested in hearing if F1's defenders still think the problem is the detractors being negative or wearing rose tinted specs still?
The "Official Grand Prix..." threads barely run over 10 pages
A couple of well-known recent drivers are very critical
The ad-man du jour lays into it from a sponsorship perspective
I'm sure there's been more I can't think of but everyone seems to be saying the same thing:
Too slow
s
t tyresNot physically hard enough
No racing
A sport of management not pushing
Stage managed overtakes
These point to pretty fundamental problems, don't they?
I enjoyed coulthard's comments. Very much agree how disappointing it is when a team suddenly goes a second quicker when they need to.
Not meant as an 'I told you so' type post by the way - genuinely interested in hearing if F1's defenders still think the problem is the detractors being negative or wearing rose tinted specs still?
I think we have all said this before.
the vast majority of the problems are down to the st tyres.
anybody that comes back and says tyre management has always been in racing should shut the f**k up and listen to what racing drivers of the past are saying, just as DC has here.
give the current cars proper tyres, (with multi-supplier) get shot of the 30 element front wings, then you will see racing, you also might well see them run out of fuel as driving harder on proper tyres is going to need more power/lap.
I 100% agree with most of DC's arguments, I'm not a massive DC fan, but he has clearly stated the obvious.
the vast majority of the problems are down to the s
t tyres.anybody that comes back and says tyre management has always been in racing should shut the f**k up and listen to what racing drivers of the past are saying, just as DC has here.
give the current cars proper tyres, (with multi-supplier) get shot of the 30 element front wings, then you will see racing, you also might well see them run out of fuel as driving harder on proper tyres is going to need more power/lap.
I 100% agree with most of DC's arguments, I'm not a massive DC fan, but he has clearly stated the obvious.
F1 is only as good as its last race.
Threads like this come alive after boring races.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o3eCk-_EXRIC&a...
Crawling around so you don't overheat the tyres is one thing, driving within yourself and tyres so you could race without pitting/prolong longevity vs. maximum attack is another. I know which part of tyre management I prefer.
What's proper tyres? Last year's Russian GP had very low deg, drivers on limit and yet the consensus was that it was a boring race, Bridgestone was criticized in 2009 for having tyres that were too good and different offer variation of strategy.
Tyre wars? Debatable. Michelin v Bridgestone era had its share of processions and good races. Pat Symonds reckons tyre wars aren't worth the hassle.
Threads like this come alive after boring races.
Scuffers said:
I think we have all said this before.
the vast majority of the problems are down to the st tyres.
anybody that comes back and says tyre management has always been in racing should shut the f**k up and listen to what racing drivers of the past are saying, just as DC has here.
give the current cars proper tyres, (with multi-supplier) get shot of the 30 element front wings, then you will see racing, you also might well see them run out of fuel as driving harder on proper tyres is going to need more power/lap.
I 100% agree with most of DC's arguments, I'm not a massive DC fan, but he has clearly stated the obvious.
Perhaps Gilles Villeneuve should STFU? This is what he had to say after winning 1979 South African GP: "I waited until the fuel load lightened before pushing the tyres too hard. Then when I felt either the front or back tyres go off I adjusted my driving"the vast majority of the problems are down to the s
t tyres.anybody that comes back and says tyre management has always been in racing should shut the f**k up and listen to what racing drivers of the past are saying, just as DC has here.
give the current cars proper tyres, (with multi-supplier) get shot of the 30 element front wings, then you will see racing, you also might well see them run out of fuel as driving harder on proper tyres is going to need more power/lap.
I 100% agree with most of DC's arguments, I'm not a massive DC fan, but he has clearly stated the obvious.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o3eCk-_EXRIC&a...
Crawling around so you don't overheat the tyres is one thing, driving within yourself and tyres so you could race without pitting/prolong longevity vs. maximum attack is another. I know which part of tyre management I prefer.
What's proper tyres? Last year's Russian GP had very low deg, drivers on limit and yet the consensus was that it was a boring race, Bridgestone was criticized in 2009 for having tyres that were too good and different offer variation of strategy.
Tyre wars? Debatable. Michelin v Bridgestone era had its share of processions and good races. Pat Symonds reckons tyre wars aren't worth the hassle.
entropy said:
Perhaps Gilles Villeneuve should STFU? This is what he had to say after winning 1979 South African GP: "I waited until the fuel load lightened before pushing the tyres too hard. Then when I felt either the front or back tyres go off I adjusted my driving"
there's a difference in pushing a tyre too hard (and having them go off) and having to drive like a granny because they fall apart if you push them.pretty sure he did more than 20 laps on them too
I still think that it is also important to not loose sight of the big picture.
The show suffers because FOM strip 50% of the up-front income. Yes, that really is 50%. Of every bum on seat and eye on the box!
They spend nothing, promoting the series, but will do deals with any despot who will pay them cash. This is fundamentally wrong! It's not BIG business, it's just short sightedness.
Sure, it would be great if the drivers were driving 10/10ths for the race and the tyres looked like a sensible race tyres, but this merry-go-round of the buck-never-stops just needs to and everyone then take a sharp intake of breath and get the show sorted.
We, the fans (consumers) are being short changed, to the tune of 50%.
Hopefully GRABBING BARSTUARDS will not live forever.
The show suffers because FOM strip 50% of the up-front income. Yes, that really is 50%. Of every bum on seat and eye on the box!
They spend nothing, promoting the series, but will do deals with any despot who will pay them cash. This is fundamentally wrong! It's not BIG business, it's just short sightedness.
Sure, it would be great if the drivers were driving 10/10ths for the race and the tyres looked like a sensible race tyres, but this merry-go-round of the buck-never-stops just needs to and everyone then take a sharp intake of breath and get the show sorted.
We, the fans (consumers) are being short changed, to the tune of 50%.
Hopefully GRABBING BARSTUARDS will not live forever.
rdjohn said:
The show suffers because FOM strip 50% of the up-front income. Yes, that really is 50%. Of every bum on seat and eye on the box!
e a sharp intake of breath and get the show sorted.
F1 has many problems but lack of money isn't one of them. How much have the teams spent developing 'power units' that not only don't improve the show but actually make it worse? What's the point in making the regulations so restrictive that innovation is practically banned? Who cares about fuel limits or maximum rates of fuel flow? What's the point of KERS? Why make tyres that aren't fit for their intended purpose of actually racing? Why has F1 sold it's soul and become little more than a offshoot of the car manufacturers marketing departments?e a sharp intake of breath and get the show sorted.
Some of us have been making these points for a while now, but it looks like the problems are finally becoming so corrosive to the spectacle that industry insiders are finally speaking out, hopefully something will be done before it's too late.
Perhaps if I just said that if 50% was not stripped out, then tickets to GPs would be cheaper , decent circuits could turn a profit and everyone could watch the races on terrestrial TV. Younger audiences could watch on their tablet at a time that suited them.
The last thing I would want is for the teams to receive more income. The prize fund is sufficient to reward success, if it was distributed fairly. View today's story in Autosport stating Ferarri got the most cash for coming fourth. FOURTH!!
Watch this space for what the Strategy Group actually agree upon to solve these issues later this week.
I am not holding my breath; I anticipate it will be nothing.
The last thing I would want is for the teams to receive more income. The prize fund is sufficient to reward success, if it was distributed fairly. View today's story in Autosport stating Ferarri got the most cash for coming fourth. FOURTH!!
Watch this space for what the Strategy Group actually agree upon to solve these issues later this week.
I am not holding my breath; I anticipate it will be nothing.
rdjohn said:
Perhaps if I just said that if 50% was not stripped out, then tickets to GPs would be cheaper , decent circuits could turn a profit and everyone could watch the races on terrestrial TV. Younger audiences could watch on their tablet at a time that suited them.
The last thing I would want is for the teams to receive more income. The prize fund is sufficient to reward success, if it was distributed fairly. View today's story in Autosport stating Ferarri got the most cash for coming fourth. FOURTH!!
Watch this space for what the Strategy Group actually agree upon to solve these issues later this week.
I am not holding my breath; I anticipate it will be nothing.
all good stuff, but that does not address the lack of racing/crap show problems.The last thing I would want is for the teams to receive more income. The prize fund is sufficient to reward success, if it was distributed fairly. View today's story in Autosport stating Ferarri got the most cash for coming fourth. FOURTH!!
Watch this space for what the Strategy Group actually agree upon to solve these issues later this week.
I am not holding my breath; I anticipate it will be nothing.
lack of money is not actually the problem, it's stupid regs.
BBC: "Formula 1: Drivers will ask fans about state of sport"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/32719280
Falling TV audiences not helped by Rupert Murdoch confiscating half of the season IMO.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/32719280
Falling TV audiences not helped by Rupert Murdoch confiscating half of the season IMO.
Scuffers said:
in the short time, 3 car teams would help a lot.
That would be very short term view (like using a sticking plaster as treatment for skin cancer).latest view from Joe Saward
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/05/15/custome...
Scuffers said:
in the short time, 3 car teams would help a lot.
I think for Red Bull it means they get 4 cars for the cost of two. Or, Renauly get a competetive car for little extra.Bernie must hate the likes of Manor a lot. Obviously Force India, Lotus and Sauber can go whistle Dixie as well. It may help Hass look a little better if his chassis turns out to be another dud (I'm thinking like Caterham and HRT).
rdjohn said:
Scuffers said:
in the short time, 3 car teams would help a lot.
I think for Red Bull it means they get 4 cars for the cost of two. Or, Renauly get a competetive car for little extra.Bernie must hate the likes of Manor a lot. Obviously Force India, Lotus and Sauber can go whistle Dixie as well. It may help Hass look a little better if his chassis turns out to be another dud (I'm thinking like Caterham and HRT).
RYH64E said:
rdjohn said:
Scuffers said:
in the short time, 3 car teams would help a lot.
I think for Red Bull it means they get 4 cars for the cost of two. Or, Renauly get a competetive car for little extra.Bernie must hate the likes of Manor a lot. Obviously Force India, Lotus and Sauber can go whistle Dixie as well. It may help Hass look a little better if his chassis turns out to be another dud (I'm thinking like Caterham and HRT).
for all the bull, we need proper grids, and 20 cars is not it, I personally want to get back to the 36 car grids of the past.
the issue we have is that the regs are just far too prescriptive, there is no room for any innovation or lateral thinking, the only gains to be made are to refine what you have to the n'th degree, and that requires bucket loads of cash.
the days of the small team being able to win by the use of some new innovation have gone, the regs simply do not allow that anymore.
then we get onto powertrains, Sorry, what we have now is a total disaster, the costs are massively out of control and it's done nothing to improve the racing, in fact, it's done just the opposite, he who spends the most money wins, witness Merc's still being on their first PU vs. Ricardo already on his 4/5th and into penalties.
Yes, the way the money is handles has not helped, but IT'S NOT THE CAUSE.
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