is F1 on its knees
Discussion
Gaz. said:
The teams dreamed up these rules so they can hardly say it isn't fair or not good for the show.
Regardless of whether the teams acknowledge the problems or not makes no difference, the show is undoubtedly suffering and things will only get worse when the various penalties start to kick in.Yesterday I watched a race where there were three possible winners until the final few laps, some top GP2 and World Championship level drivers, tyres that could be leant on from lap one, a variety of different strategies all unravelling and some properly brave overtaking moves on a classic circuit.
It was the European Le Mans Series from Imola.
The F1 strategy group could do worse than taking these sporting rules and adapting them to a 2 hour open wheel technical formula.
It was the European Le Mans Series from Imola.
The F1 strategy group could do worse than taking these sporting rules and adapting them to a 2 hour open wheel technical formula.
MartG said:
Penalties likely to be hitting several teams soon - not quite sure how this helps 'the show' at all ?
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-and-tor...
The way the penalties are cumulative if you change more than one component, when will a team decide there's no point turning up ?
Did it used to be the case that an engine might have been used for one weekend only? I know they had race and qualifying spec engines at least...http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-and-tor...
The way the penalties are cumulative if you change more than one component, when will a team decide there's no point turning up ?
Back in the 80s there were very few limits on tyres, engines, fuel mixtures etc etc.
In the 70s you could do as many practice laps as you wanted. I heard Graham Hill once did over 100 practice laps at a Grand Prix - more than in the race.
There was no separate "qualifying" sessions as such back then. You just pounded around trying to get a good set up and time.
In the 70s you could do as many practice laps as you wanted. I heard Graham Hill once did over 100 practice laps at a Grand Prix - more than in the race.
There was no separate "qualifying" sessions as such back then. You just pounded around trying to get a good set up and time.
MartG said:
Esseesse said:
Did it used to be the case that an engine might have been used for one weekend only? I know they had race and qualifying spec engines at least...
Yes - IIRC they'd have one for practice, one for qualy, one for the race, plus a spare - for each carI can’t really fathom what’s happened this year. I enjoyed last year’s action - there were some good battles, cars sliding around a bit and a reasonable amount of unpredictability, even though Lewis and Nico clearly had the car with the most beans.
This year it’s encouraging to see Ferrari with a credible vehicle, but beyond this there’s been little worthy of note so far. Overtaking seems to be a struggle again. And either the teams have adapted to the Pirellis now or Pirelli have stopped making tyres that turned to stilton after 16 laps.
Characters such as Kobayashi and Kubica are also nowhere to be seen, though many of the new midfield drivers have proven to be very competent.
Then there’s the complete flop that is McLaren Honda. Fair play for such a brave move, I really hope it pays off as I’m quite the Honda enthusiast, but it must be a touch embarrassing for Jenson and Fernando.
Someone also seems to have discovered a way of planning out the races so there’s never a drop of rain on race day, which is a shame. I’m losing interest!
This year it’s encouraging to see Ferrari with a credible vehicle, but beyond this there’s been little worthy of note so far. Overtaking seems to be a struggle again. And either the teams have adapted to the Pirellis now or Pirelli have stopped making tyres that turned to stilton after 16 laps.
Characters such as Kobayashi and Kubica are also nowhere to be seen, though many of the new midfield drivers have proven to be very competent.
Then there’s the complete flop that is McLaren Honda. Fair play for such a brave move, I really hope it pays off as I’m quite the Honda enthusiast, but it must be a touch embarrassing for Jenson and Fernando.
Someone also seems to have discovered a way of planning out the races so there’s never a drop of rain on race day, which is a shame. I’m losing interest!
Fuzzarr said:
And either the teams have adapted to the Pirellis now or Pirelli have stopped making tyres that turned to stilton after 16 laps.
Yes, unfortunately adapting to the tyres has meant maintaining at least a 2 second gap to the car in front, and not stressing the tyres with excessive acceleration or braking. Great tactics for the daily commute, less so for the pinnacle of motorsport.RYH64E said:
Fuzzarr said:
And either the teams have adapted to the Pirellis now or Pirelli have stopped making tyres that turned to stilton after 16 laps.
Yes, unfortunately adapting to the tyres has meant maintaining at least a 2 second gap to the car in front, and not stressing the tyres with excessive acceleration or braking. Great tactics for the daily commute, less so for the pinnacle of motorsport.Why the obsession with lap times in F1? GP2 could be designed to run slower than F1.
ACO never like LMP1 breaking the 3m20s barrier and so forth down the classes. It wasn't long ago it was comfortably in the teens. With freer reign perhaps they'd be looking to break the 3min barrier? Yet there isn't a massive fuss as is in F1?
ACO never like LMP1 breaking the 3m20s barrier and so forth down the classes. It wasn't long ago it was comfortably in the teens. With freer reign perhaps they'd be looking to break the 3min barrier? Yet there isn't a massive fuss as is in F1?
if you really are a fan (not just someone who enjoys their rose tinted glasses and telling everyone how wonderful it all was years ago), do fill in the surveys:
GPDA survey for fans, currently overloaded, but keep trying : http://gpda.motorsport.com/
The annual autosport survey: http://surveys.haymarket.com/s3/GFC-survey-2015
GPDA survey for fans, currently overloaded, but keep trying : http://gpda.motorsport.com/
The annual autosport survey: http://surveys.haymarket.com/s3/GFC-survey-2015
Crafty_ said:
if you really are a fan (not just someone who enjoys their rose tinted glasses and telling everyone how wonderful it all was years ago), do fill in the surveys:
So you're implying that those who are dissatisfied with current F1 are not real fans? How long are you going to keep your head buried in the sand? Fortunately, the rest of the F1 world would finally appear to be accepting the fact that the tyres are s
t, the regulations are ridiculous, and the show is in decline, so maybe something might be done about it.entropy said:
Why the obsession with lap times in F1? GP2 could be designed to run slower than F1.
ACO never like LMP1 breaking the 3m20s barrier and so forth down the classes. It wasn't long ago it was comfortably in the teens. With freer reign perhaps they'd be looking to break the 3min barrier? Yet there isn't a massive fuss as is in F1?
Indeed. The ACO will slow the P1s down again before Le Mans 2016. No need for fuss, the cars will be back close to 3m20 within a few years, thanks to the innovation which the regulations allow. ACO never like LMP1 breaking the 3m20s barrier and so forth down the classes. It wasn't long ago it was comfortably in the teens. With freer reign perhaps they'd be looking to break the 3min barrier? Yet there isn't a massive fuss as is in F1?
RobGT81 said:
entropy said:
Why the obsession with lap times in F1? GP2 could be designed to run slower than F1.
ACO never like LMP1 breaking the 3m20s barrier and so forth down the classes. It wasn't long ago it was comfortably in the teens. With freer reign perhaps they'd be looking to break the 3min barrier? Yet there isn't a massive fuss as is in F1?
Indeed. The ACO will slow the P1s down again before Le Mans 2016. No need for fuss, the cars will be back close to 3m20 within a few years, thanks to the innovation which the regulations allow. ACO never like LMP1 breaking the 3m20s barrier and so forth down the classes. It wasn't long ago it was comfortably in the teens. With freer reign perhaps they'd be looking to break the 3min barrier? Yet there isn't a massive fuss as is in F1?
Ever since F1 has artificially limited speeds for safety concerns (which isn't necessarily a problem) because cars are "too fast" it's lost it's edge.
My issue with slowing the cars down, is the definition of what "too fast" actually means. What is the limit for each corner? Who says that cars can't go around a track in perfect safety 20 seconds faster than they do now, especially since technology and performance in every aspect is improving, from tyres, engines, driver fitness, safety management etc.etc.
F1 needs to be on the edge, currently it feels as if it's been dumbed down for no good reason, which kills it's entire reason for being, that of going as fast as is possible. Not just fast within a hugely tight framework of rules, but just fast.
Commonsense needs to be applied, we can't go back to the lethal days of the late 60's and 70's, but F1 at the moment is just too restricted and controlled.
It's interesting to me that even drivers are complaining that it's a bit too safe these days.
Let's not get into a safety argument as I don't think anyone wants to see people die but there is an undeniable side to human behaviour that finds risk-taking exciting and compelling. Old Skool drivers that died in a ball of fire every single weekend were heroes because they were doing something we either don't want to or don't have the nerve to do. I bet when it comes down to it, not many of us would have wanted to actually, genuinely trade places with Fangio and try and pilot and explosive tube around a tree-lined circuit once we found ourselves in the driving seat. It was scary. And that made the drivers heroic.
Motorbike racing is still dangerous and it's all the more exciting for it. Take the road-racing scene from NW200 to TT: it's bloody lethal and yet everyone involved seems to have sort of come to terms with that being part and parcel of it. It's scary, exciting, tense and I know that even if I rode my motorcycle for a hundred years, I'll never have the brass to put in a fast lap at the TT. So they're heroes to me.
F1 needs heroes. It needs to have drivers who are taking themselves and their cars to physical and mental limits that you or I simply couldn't. That's how they earn their salaries and that's how they win fans. I'm sorry but if a 17 year old can finish free practice in Monaco in P2 having never driven the circuit before, then something is wrong. Does anyone here really believe that the drivers are so impressive now? Everyone I know sees them as spoiled brats who are basically just grown up (or not) video games champions. They're not really putting it on the line or doing anything athletically impressive any more. I genuinely think that any reasonably handy guy up to about age 40 could probably be taught to lap very closely to modern F1 times in a few weeks of intensive coaching.
I don't think all the coaching in the world would have got me to be brave enough to be fast in the old days.
So where does that leave us? I dunno. I'm not sure what the answer is. You can't really intentionally make it more dangerous. And the focus shouldn't even be the danger. I suppose that should be a by-product of men and machines being pushed hard. So maybe we need to let them push. Bin the green agendas, let the big teams spend money and see what happens. These are competitive people and they want to compete. I wonder if that would restore the glamour and excitement (which by the way, would start the external cashflow back into the sport, allowing new avenues for the little guys to have a presence).
Thinking out loud really but certainly whatever is wrong with it, isn't about focussing on metrics like number of overtakes or lap time. That just seems typical of the sort of wrong-thinking that led the sport here. It should be about excitement, achievement, glamour, sport and money. To me, anyway.
Let's not get into a safety argument as I don't think anyone wants to see people die but there is an undeniable side to human behaviour that finds risk-taking exciting and compelling. Old Skool drivers that died in a ball of fire every single weekend were heroes because they were doing something we either don't want to or don't have the nerve to do. I bet when it comes down to it, not many of us would have wanted to actually, genuinely trade places with Fangio and try and pilot and explosive tube around a tree-lined circuit once we found ourselves in the driving seat. It was scary. And that made the drivers heroic.
Motorbike racing is still dangerous and it's all the more exciting for it. Take the road-racing scene from NW200 to TT: it's bloody lethal and yet everyone involved seems to have sort of come to terms with that being part and parcel of it. It's scary, exciting, tense and I know that even if I rode my motorcycle for a hundred years, I'll never have the brass to put in a fast lap at the TT. So they're heroes to me.
F1 needs heroes. It needs to have drivers who are taking themselves and their cars to physical and mental limits that you or I simply couldn't. That's how they earn their salaries and that's how they win fans. I'm sorry but if a 17 year old can finish free practice in Monaco in P2 having never driven the circuit before, then something is wrong. Does anyone here really believe that the drivers are so impressive now? Everyone I know sees them as spoiled brats who are basically just grown up (or not) video games champions. They're not really putting it on the line or doing anything athletically impressive any more. I genuinely think that any reasonably handy guy up to about age 40 could probably be taught to lap very closely to modern F1 times in a few weeks of intensive coaching.
I don't think all the coaching in the world would have got me to be brave enough to be fast in the old days.
So where does that leave us? I dunno. I'm not sure what the answer is. You can't really intentionally make it more dangerous. And the focus shouldn't even be the danger. I suppose that should be a by-product of men and machines being pushed hard. So maybe we need to let them push. Bin the green agendas, let the big teams spend money and see what happens. These are competitive people and they want to compete. I wonder if that would restore the glamour and excitement (which by the way, would start the external cashflow back into the sport, allowing new avenues for the little guys to have a presence).
Thinking out loud really but certainly whatever is wrong with it, isn't about focussing on metrics like number of overtakes or lap time. That just seems typical of the sort of wrong-thinking that led the sport here. It should be about excitement, achievement, glamour, sport and money. To me, anyway.
Gaz. said:
I agree to a point, it was highlighted by a driver last year when he was asked how he had the balls to try something daring (I honestly can't remember what it was, but it had the gravitas of taking Eau Rouge flat with one hand) and he replied that it wouldn't hurt if it went wrong and just be a little embarrassing.
Rings a bell with me too.I honestly don't know what you do about it though. I think bikes get away with it by being 'twas ever thus' but you can't take backward safety steps. And anyway, you shouldn't want to. It's just that tiny spark of danger that you get when things are on the limit that's missing. It's not about danger for it's own sake at all. And it would be wrong to focus on that, but maybe it's a symptom of what's missing?
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