is F1 on its knees
Discussion
F1 didn't compare well to WEC yesterday. Things only perked up in the F1 race when Verstappen was overtaking and Maldonado was being his usual self.
WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
A lot has been said already, but without a complete blank sheet rewrite of the F1 car and testing rulebook, F1 is only going to paint itself more into the corner its in. When Nissan turns up this year, the 4 LMP1 cars are going to be a mid engined 4cyl turbo petrol, a V8 petrol, a V6 diesel, and a front engined FWD V6 petrol, with different hybrid systems on each of them. Very different cars, and they have different advantages, so you get stuff like the lap after lap Porsche vs Audi yesterday (Porsche on the straights, Audi on the corners. Weirdly a bit like the Minis and yank V8's in 70's saloon car racing
)
WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
A lot has been said already, but without a complete blank sheet rewrite of the F1 car and testing rulebook, F1 is only going to paint itself more into the corner its in. When Nissan turns up this year, the 4 LMP1 cars are going to be a mid engined 4cyl turbo petrol, a V8 petrol, a V6 diesel, and a front engined FWD V6 petrol, with different hybrid systems on each of them. Very different cars, and they have different advantages, so you get stuff like the lap after lap Porsche vs Audi yesterday (Porsche on the straights, Audi on the corners. Weirdly a bit like the Minis and yank V8's in 70's saloon car racing
)ajprice said:
When Nissan turns up this year, the 4 LMP1 cars are going to be a mid engined 4cyl turbo petrol, a V8 petrol, a V6 diesel, and a front engined FWD V6 petrol, with different hybrid systems on each of them. Very different cars, and they have different advantages, so you get stuff like the lap after lap Porsche vs Audi yesterday (Porsche on the straights, Audi on the corners. Weirdly a bit like the Minis and yank V8's in 70's saloon car racing )
And this is why its so much more interesting )ajprice said:
F1 didn't compare well to WEC yesterday. Things only perked up in the F1 race when Verstappen was overtaking and Maldonado was being his usual self.
WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
A lot has been said already, but without a complete blank sheet rewrite of the F1 car and testing rulebook, F1 is only going to paint itself more into the corner its in. When Nissan turns up this year, the 4 LMP1 cars are going to be a mid engined 4cyl turbo petrol, a V8 petrol, a V6 diesel, and a front engined FWD V6 petrol, with different hybrid systems on each of them. Very different cars, and they have different advantages, so you get stuff like the lap after lap Porsche vs Audi yesterday (Porsche on the straights, Audi on the corners. Weirdly a bit like the Minis and yank V8's in 70's saloon car racing )
And all this going on around GT versions of road going cars on the limit. Watching the LMP1 show scything through 911s, Astons, 458s and Corvettes all having their own race is brilliant. the WEC this year is shaping up to be a great season's racing. Give it another year when Nissan are up to speed and maybe a few more f1 drivers have jumped ship and it will be even better.WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
A lot has been said already, but without a complete blank sheet rewrite of the F1 car and testing rulebook, F1 is only going to paint itself more into the corner its in. When Nissan turns up this year, the 4 LMP1 cars are going to be a mid engined 4cyl turbo petrol, a V8 petrol, a V6 diesel, and a front engined FWD V6 petrol, with different hybrid systems on each of them. Very different cars, and they have different advantages, so you get stuff like the lap after lap Porsche vs Audi yesterday (Porsche on the straights, Audi on the corners. Weirdly a bit like the Minis and yank V8's in 70's saloon car racing
)F1 for me is background tv - if its on, I'll watch it while doing something else, if I miss it, I don't really care. It just isn't much fun anymore IMO - maybe it has changed, or maybe it's me - either way, I have tickets to Le Mans this year and wouldn't even consider shelling out for the F1.
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
Senna's first race was in 1984. How on earth can you complain that people who have been following a sport for over 30 years are casual fans? 
Ridiculous premise.
How much is it to get into Silverstone this year to try and find somewhere to stand and watch a handful of cars go past? Sorry, did you say £350 for my family for 1 day? er....the WEC was £88 for all of us for 2 days with un-imaginable access to the paddock areas and seating. Oh, and I hardly encountered a queue all weekend.
F1 has much to learn. The current format is an absolute joke. Hamilton might bag his third title and barely anyone will notice.
F1 has much to learn. The current format is an absolute joke. Hamilton might bag his third title and barely anyone will notice.
As long as F1 strives above all else to be at the bleeding edge technologically I think it'll always be this way.
Rules get changed and the team that is luckiest with their Magic 8 Ball roll gets to be night and day better than the opposition for that season (or 2+ seasons as is the case now).
When the rules inevitably get changed again to deal with Mercedes dominance it'll just be another team at the front doing the same. Perhaps Ferrari, or Red Bull again, or maybe even McLaren (don't laugh). The circle of F1 life continues.
This is the problem with a 1-2 second performance difference being night and day in this sport. There isn't enough the driver can do to close that gap. The fact people made such a big deal out of Ferrari winning in Sepang because they want to believe it's a competitive season, but let's be honest with ourselves the cards are already on the table for this season. As long as Mercedes don't suffer mechanical issues they'll just continue to walk it, while people trump up the efforts of Vettel and co.
Hamilton showed in this race that when asked he can just turn up the wick and show the real difference between his car and the rest of the field. That is in no small part because of the whole "race management" dependency in the sport, you can't just drive the car at maximum capacity for any time at all. Race starts and a couple of laps later people are dropping back to save their tyres and so forth. Utterly boring.
That all said nothing has really changed for several years now so I don't know why it's a revelation to anyone who has been consistently watching the races. It was Red Bull for 4 odd years, now it's Mercedes. The next time the rules change it'll be someone else and Hamilton will be back to pouting about how there but for the grace of God in every post-race interview. The irony in him once saying that F1 was becoming boring for fans when Vettel was dominating almost makes my eyes roll out of my head.
I can't see how anyone can really enjoy this sport in the state it's in to be honest, there is little fun in knowing before the cars even turn a wheel on the starting grid that you're hoping mechanical failure will make it anything other than a procession.
Rules get changed and the team that is luckiest with their Magic 8 Ball roll gets to be night and day better than the opposition for that season (or 2+ seasons as is the case now).
When the rules inevitably get changed again to deal with Mercedes dominance it'll just be another team at the front doing the same. Perhaps Ferrari, or Red Bull again, or maybe even McLaren (don't laugh). The circle of F1 life continues.
This is the problem with a 1-2 second performance difference being night and day in this sport. There isn't enough the driver can do to close that gap. The fact people made such a big deal out of Ferrari winning in Sepang because they want to believe it's a competitive season, but let's be honest with ourselves the cards are already on the table for this season. As long as Mercedes don't suffer mechanical issues they'll just continue to walk it, while people trump up the efforts of Vettel and co.
Hamilton showed in this race that when asked he can just turn up the wick and show the real difference between his car and the rest of the field. That is in no small part because of the whole "race management" dependency in the sport, you can't just drive the car at maximum capacity for any time at all. Race starts and a couple of laps later people are dropping back to save their tyres and so forth. Utterly boring.
That all said nothing has really changed for several years now so I don't know why it's a revelation to anyone who has been consistently watching the races. It was Red Bull for 4 odd years, now it's Mercedes. The next time the rules change it'll be someone else and Hamilton will be back to pouting about how there but for the grace of God in every post-race interview. The irony in him once saying that F1 was becoming boring for fans when Vettel was dominating almost makes my eyes roll out of my head.
I can't see how anyone can really enjoy this sport in the state it's in to be honest, there is little fun in knowing before the cars even turn a wheel on the starting grid that you're hoping mechanical failure will make it anything other than a procession.
Disastrous said:
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
Senna's first race was in 1984. How on earth can you complain that people who have been following a sport for over 30 years are casual fans? Ridiculous premise.
ajprice said:
F1 didn't compare well to WEC yesterday. Things only perked up in the F1 race when Verstappen was overtaking and Maldonado was being his usual self.
WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
)
So how much of this 6 hours of racing was edge of your seat stuff? Genuine question as I have not got access to WEC myself.WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
)
DJRC said:
Disastrous said:
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
Senna's first race was in 1984. How on earth can you complain that people who have been following a sport for over 30 years are casual fans? Ridiculous premise.
spats said:
ajprice said:
F1 didn't compare well to WEC yesterday. Things only perked up in the F1 race when Verstappen was overtaking and Maldonado was being his usual self.
WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
)
So how much of this 6 hours of racing was edge of your seat stuff? Genuine question as I have not got access to WEC myself.WEC finished a 6 HOUR RACE with the top 3 cars within 15 seconds of each other. They were different cars from different teams. These cars are within a few seconds of F1 front of the grid pace, and ahead of the back of the grid cars (commentators compared yesterdays WEC lap times to the 2014 Silverstone F1 lap times).
)
Even when it isn't edge of seat, the variety makes it worthwhile - you could sit and listen to the cars with your eyes shut and it would still have more going for it than f1 - the racket that the WEC orchestra makes is something special.
Durzel said:
As long as F1 strives above all else to be at the bleeding edge technologically I think it'll always be this way.
But it isn't.As far as technology goes LMP1 in WEC is much more relevant and cutting edge. It allows manufacturers to do what they want within a set of rules which is why in the top class each manufacturer has come up with totally different solutions and they finish after 6 hours within seconds of each other.
In recent years TFSI, TDI, useable Hybrid tech, LED headlights, Dynamic Lighting, all from the WEC and Le Mans. What's made the jump to road cars from F1 recently?
F1 is background TV now, WEC is must watch TV.
This assumes you don't want to go along, £40 a ticket and sit where you want....
Parsnip said:
The majority.
Don't forget the two 458s in GT Pro! They were less than 100 yards apart for 6 hours, bloody superb racing those guys had.Edited by ellroy on Monday 13th April 14:53
Disastrous said:
Totally agree. Before the "if you don't like it, then don't watch it!!!" brigade shows up, I watch it because I used to love F1 and want it to be great agin. But it's just not.
Compared to the MotoGP opener which had me on my feet cheering at the TV, Melbourne sent me off to sleep.
I regret getting up early to watch the GP this weekend just gone. Well I didn't get up up, but I woke up and got it on the iPad in bed. So at least when I nodded off, I was in the right place.Compared to the MotoGP opener which had me on my feet cheering at the TV, Melbourne sent me off to sleep.
Just boring.
However, I just know, the one time I do not watch the F1, it'll be ballistic! It seems to blow burning hot or freezing cold. What the need to do is just get it onto a simmer. So that there is always something going on, with a good chance of a full on boil.
Disastrous said:
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
Senna's first race was in 1984. How on earth can you complain that people who have been following a sport for over 30 years are casual fans? Ridiculous premise.
Eric Mc said:
Disastrous said:
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
Senna's first race was in 1984. How on earth can you complain that people who have been following a sport for over 30 years are casual fans? Ridiculous premise.
Only on PH could someone maintain that a 30 year interest in a sport is irrelevant.
Trouble with F1 now is the engine, before if your engine wasn't as good as another you thought up something else like computer controlled ride height or the blown diffuser.
But now, that's all gone because they all use XXX Ecu etc its really down to the engines, the top teams all going to have reasonable aero package, but as we see with the dog s
t engine Renault have made, those cars running that engine can not compete.
Ferrari are a lot better, but they are still down on power. Its got good aero and looks after its tyres so what could be missing? Power!
I enjoy BTCC but the only reason that's close is down to pretty much they all use a blueprint engine design and ballast, which wont work in F1. But they need to really get the engines sorted so there more equal as they teams (other then works) have no control over that.
We can all agree that some drivers are better then others on certain tracks, but we cant see that with the difference in engines and to add on to that all the MGP hybrid bks
But now, that's all gone because they all use XXX Ecu etc its really down to the engines, the top teams all going to have reasonable aero package, but as we see with the dog s
t engine Renault have made, those cars running that engine can not compete.Ferrari are a lot better, but they are still down on power. Its got good aero and looks after its tyres so what could be missing? Power!
I enjoy BTCC but the only reason that's close is down to pretty much they all use a blueprint engine design and ballast, which wont work in F1. But they need to really get the engines sorted so there more equal as they teams (other then works) have no control over that.
We can all agree that some drivers are better then others on certain tracks, but we cant see that with the difference in engines and to add on to that all the MGP hybrid b
ksIainT said:
Eric Mc said:
The 20 millionth thread on this topic since PH began over a decade ago.
F1 definitely has its problems but they are more centered on management and finance of the series than on the track.
Compared to the early 2000s, the actually racing is wildly exciting.
Well put Eric.F1 definitely has its problems but they are more centered on management and finance of the series than on the track.
Compared to the early 2000s, the actually racing is wildly exciting.
What I think that we are seeing now though is not how bad F1 has become but how much our expectations have been altered by a more accessible diet of motorsport on TV.
Yesterday I watched the GP, then did a bit of work about the house listening to RLM with a few peeks at the TV here and there followed by an hour of Blancpain before the Mrs Complained and reminded me I had promised her we could watch Le Mans last night before bed time.
WEC compared to F1 was thrill a minute. WEC compared to BES was quiet...
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