is F1 on its knees

[Alan-11oc0]

dr_gn said:

I think the fact they're also reversing stuff they made decades ago to increase overtaking chances (i.e widening the cars again, proposing refuelling etc.) confirms that whoever decides these things never learns. F1 is currently a complete fk up. Any or all of Hamilton's championships won in this era are worth toss all IMO.

So were Schumachers 7 more worthy? Or any of Sennas when the Mclaren was light years ahead of anything else?

P.S. If anything, the recent years have had the best quality of drivers in a long time, eg,Lewis,Vettel,Kimi,Alonso,Button etc

Edited by Alan-11oc0 on Monday 8th June 16:10

[Muzzer79]

The engines as a principle are fine - F1 should be at the cutting edge of technology and hybrid tech is the cutting edge

What I object to is the slowing down for fuel management/tyre management. Racing should be about going as fast as you can

Granted, in the old days, people still had to manage tyres for wear but they certainly didn't have all this "lift and coast" nonsense....

Problem is, as hard as they find rules to circumvent these things, the teams come up with new ways to make the show worse.....

You can't blame the drivers - they drive what they're given.

I think Ecclestone needs to move on. He's too old and has no idea or inclination as to what's required.

Jean Todt also needs to be replaced. He presided over the most boring period of F1 domination for years so quite what he'd know about putting today's situation right is a mystery.

Bring in two dynamic, racing folk who know how the sport works and give them power to make F1 what it should be.
One of those people should be Ross Brawn, IMO.

[Derek Smith]

Alan-11oc0 said:

dr_gn said:

I think the fact they're also reversing stuff they made decades ago to increase overtaking chances (i.e widening the cars again, proposing refuelling etc.) confirms that whoever decides these things never learns. F1 is currently a complete fk up. Any or all of Hamilton's championships won in this era are worth toss all IMO.

So were Schumachers 7 more worthy? Or any of Sennas when the Mclaren was light years ahead of anything else?

P.S. If anything, the recent years have had the best quality of drivers in a long time, eg,Lewis,Vettel,Kimi,Alonso,Button etc

Edited by Alan-11oc0 on Monday 8th June 16:10

The difference in the Schummi years was that he raced in a one car team. The focus was on him and him alone. The function of the second driver was to support MS and not get in the way in the pits.

I agree about the standard of driving as well. There's some real quality out there at present. It is a shame much of it is in cars at the back.

[RYH64E]

Muzzer79 said:

I think Ecclestone needs to move on. He's too old and has no idea or inclination as to what's required.

Ecclestone knows exactly what's wrong and what's required to do it, the problem is that he doesn't have the authority to do so. There are too many conflicting interests in F1 for anything radical to get pushed through, the manufacturers want to sell cars and CVC wants to make money, nobody much cares if the racing is any good and the fans are a long way down the list of stakeholders.

And who gives a fk about hybrid technology and fuel efficiency, it's meant to be about racing not an engineering wkfest.

[dr_gn]

Alan-11oc0 said:

dr_gn said:

I think the fact they're also reversing stuff they made decades ago to increase overtaking chances (i.e widening the cars again, proposing refuelling etc.) confirms that whoever decides these things never learns. F1 is currently a complete fk up. Any or all of Hamilton's championships won in this era are worth toss all IMO.

So were Schumachers 7 more worthy? Or any of Sennas when the Mclaren was light years ahead of anything else?

P.S. If anything, the recent years have had the best quality of drivers in a long time, eg,Lewis,Vettel,Kimi,Alonso,Button etc

Edited by Alan-11oc0 on Monday 8th June 16:10

Senna's titles were won when a driver had to drive the car with a clutch and manual gearbox, and could benefit from a degree of mechanical sympathy. Plus in the one year McLaren had a clear advantage, he was up against then double world champion Prost. So yes, I'd say Sennas championships were all "worth" more - and significantly more.

Schumacher's titles? That's a good question given the apparent advantages Ferrari were afforded in terms of tyre development and funding.

[KarlMac]

In defence of F1, what sport has improved? WRC and BTCC are a joke compared to 90s. Maybe its a phase thing, WEC and GT seems yo be where its at currently

[Scuffers]

RYH64E said:

Muzzer79 said:

I think Ecclestone needs to move on. He's too old and has no idea or inclination as to what's required.

Ecclestone knows exactly what's wrong and what's required to do it, the problem is that he doesn't have the authority to do so. There are too many conflicting interests in F1 for anything radical to get pushed through, the manufacturers want to sell cars and CVC wants to make money, nobody much cares if the racing is any good and the fans are a long way down the list of stakeholders.

And who gives a fk about hybrid technology and fuel efficiency, it's meant to be about racing not an engineering wkfest.

exactly,

this has zero to do with Berni, he said it was a stupid direction at the time.

F1 should be what it always has been, making the car the fastest it can be, within some outline regs.

what we have now is regs so tight as to define exactly what every part should be, where it's placed, etc etc, ie, no scope for innovation (something F1 was renowned for).

nobody is interested in hybrid st any more than they are with Formula E...

The sad part of all this is that Renault were pushing this hard and in the process have screwed themselves.

IMHO Powertrain should be free, only regs should be you have X kg's of fuel per race, Y max fuel flow rate, and that's it.

if people want to make V16's or gas turbines, go for it, hell, we might see some real innovation.

same for tyres, need 2+ makes, doing the very best they can to win.

[Muzzer79]

RYH64E said:

And who gives a fk about hybrid technology and fuel efficiency, it's meant to be about racing not an engineering wkfest.

F1 has always been about engineering as much as it's been about racing.

I'm sure people complained about those complicated, new-fangled turbo engines when they came about in the 80's but they were relevant then just as hybrid tech is now.

The idea is to entice manufacturers in by having them build something relevant to their actual road cars. Not many road cars will be using sopping-great high-revving V8's or V12's from now on.....

Anyhow, how the engine makes it go is irrelevant to me. What's important is that they have a lot of power (they currently do) and are able to deploy it (they currently can't)

I don't think people should be wistful for the F1 of old - you can't go back in time. The sport has to move forward and hybrid tech is it.

The aero, fuel and tyres are what needs changing.

[egor110]

dr_gn said:

Could we get rid of the embarrassing "celebrity fans" too while we're at it? According to the BBC coverage, Michael Douglas and son are apparently "huge F1 enthusiasts", yet mid-race they appeared to be happily stuffing their faces in some paddock hospitality area rather than experiencing the total non-event taking place on track. Oh...hang on...

That's pretty normal behaviour in hospitality to be fair.

[RYH64E]

Muzzer79 said:

RYH64E said:

And who gives a fk about hybrid technology and fuel efficiency, it's meant to be about racing not an engineering wkfest.

F1 has always been about engineering as much as it's been about racing.

I'm sure people complained about those complicated, new-fangled turbo engines when they came about in the 80's but they were relevant then just as hybrid tech is now.

The idea is to entice manufacturers in by having them build something relevant to their actual road cars. Not many road cars will be using sopping-great high-revving V8's or V12's from now on.....

Anyhow, how the engine makes it go is irrelevant to me. What's important is that they have a lot of power (they currently do) and are able to deploy it (they currently can't)

I don't think people should be wistful for the F1 of old - you can't go back in time. The sport has to move forward and hybrid tech is it.

The aero, fuel and tyres are what needs changing.

Honda can't even get their engines started for qualifying let alone finish a race, Renault engined cars are not only underpowered and unreliable they'll be starting from the back of the grid for the rest of the season as they exhaust their engine allocation, and none of the drivers can get to the end of a race without constant advice from their engineers about what buttons to press, what maps to use, and when to lift and coast. It's more like a Playstation game than a race series.

There's no reason at all why F1 should adopt hybrid technology, it's not a green sport and never will be.

[Scuffers]

Muzzer79 said:

F1 has always been about engineering as much as it's been about racing.

engineering <> marketing

the hybrid st we have is marketing lead, not engineering.

if it was engineering lead, we would have MGU's on the front wheels, no artificial limits on capacities, etc etc

[celicawrc]

Scuffers said:

RYH64E said:

Muzzer79 said:

I think Ecclestone needs to move on. He's too old and has no idea or inclination as to what's required.

Ecclestone knows exactly what's wrong and what's required to do it, the problem is that he doesn't have the authority to do so. There are too many conflicting interests in F1 for anything radical to get pushed through, the manufacturers want to sell cars and CVC wants to make money, nobody much cares if the racing is any good and the fans are a long way down the list of stakeholders.

And who gives a fk about hybrid technology and fuel efficiency, it's meant to be about racing not an engineering wkfest.

exactly,

this has zero to do with Berni, he said it was a stupid direction at the time.

F1 should be what it always has been, making the car the fastest it can be, within some outline regs.

what we have now is regs so tight as to define exactly what every part should be, where it's placed, etc etc, ie, no scope for innovation (something F1 was renowned for).

nobody is interested in hybrid st any more than they are with Formula E...

The sad part of all this is that Renault were pushing this hard and in the process have screwed themselves.

IMHO Powertrain should be free, only regs should be you have X kg's of fuel per race, Y max fuel flow rate, and that's it.

if people want to make V16's or gas turbines, go for it, hell, we might see some real innovation.

same for tyres, need 2+ makes, doing the very best they can to win.

+1

I find it laughable that people think F1 is at the pinnacle of technology. Rather embarrassing that a car gathering dust for 11 years could be wheeled out tomorrow, starting from the pitlane on grooved tyres and still lap the entire field several times over.

The change from the V8's was partly down to a ridiculous notion that F1 for some reason had to pretend it was environmentally friendly. To whom and for whatever reason still remains a mystery?
The other was indeed the marketing bullst from Renault, Mercedes and Honda. Delusionally pretending that Joe Bloggs Clio or Civic will somehow be dripping with F1 turbo technology.

Those 3 teams pushed hard for the V6's and the dreadful sound track is one reason why circuit attendances have dropped off a cliff. Like Bernie and co the teams have put themselves above the sport and it's now paying a very heavy price.

[Mojocvh]

An alternative view could be a thread full of sour grapes and a hatred of bling, perhaps?

[Walford]

Lewis did look quiet fresh getting out of the car in park firme, nothing like seeing Senna etc back when they were driving at 100%

[5150]

Walford said:

Lewis did look quiet fresh getting out of the car in park firme, nothing like seeing Senna etc back when they were driving at 100%

Have a look at this week's IOM TT coverage. Guys are getting off bikes almost in tears it's so intense. . . don't think I've seen anything along those lines in F1.

[Scuffers]

5150 said:

Walford said:

Lewis did look quiet fresh getting out of the car in park firme, nothing like seeing Senna etc back when they were driving at 100%

Have a look at this week's IOM TT coverage. Guys are getting off bikes almost in tears it's so intense. . . don't think I've seen anything along those lines in F1.

watching the TT coverage literally has me wincing...

last night in the super-stock, one guy clipped a kerb at 140+, how he did not fall off and die I just don't understand.