Audi to F1 now?

Audi to F1 now?

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stemll

Original Poster:

4,064 posts

199 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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With today's news that Ferdinand Piech has resigned and the oft-quoted view that his differences with Bernie were the main blocker, does this open the way for Audi to enter F1 leaving the WEC to Porsche?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32468360

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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The question is why would they. Whats the value proposition?

stemll

Original Poster:

4,064 posts

199 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
quotequote all
Mercedes see value and given where Audi seem to want to position their road cars, I expect they would rather be beating Mercedes than Toyota.

Plus, Eddie Jordan would seem to think that the only blocker was Piech/Ecclestone (from http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30336569)

"The Volkswagen Audi Group is the second biggest car maker in the world and as such it needs to be in Formula 1. But it will not enter it while the sport remains under the control of Bernie Ecclestone, who VAG boss Ferdinand Piech dislikes on a personal and professional basis. Martin Winterkorn - the chairman of the board of management of Volkswagen - is being groomed as Piech's successor and he has always believed that F1 is a great platform for the group's brands. I am told he privately believes VAG should be a part of F1. If VAG did come to F1, I believe it would be with their own team, with the car designed and made in Germany."

Edited by stemll on Saturday 25th April 18:49

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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I wouldn't be too optimistic, even if they come in its likely they'll buy an existing team, like MB did, not add to the numbers.

It might make the numbers a bit more secure but not much more.

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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stemll said:
Mercedes see value and given where Audi seem to want to position their road cars, I expect they would rather be beating Mercedes than Toyota.

Plus, Eddie Jordan would seem to think that the only blocker was Piech/Ecclestone (from http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30336569)

"The Volkswagen Audi Group is the second biggest car maker in the world and as such it needs to be in Formula 1. But it will not enter it while the sport remains under the control of Bernie Ecclestone, who VAG boss Ferdinand Piech dislikes on a personal and professional basis. Martin Winterkorn - the chairman of the board of management of Volkswagen - is being groomed as Piech's successor and he has always believed that F1 is a great platform for the group's brands. I am told he privately believes VAG should be a part of F1. If VAG did come to F1, I believe it would be with their own team, with the car designed and made in Germany."

Edited by stemll on Saturday 25th April 18:49
The thing is they have flirted with the idea several times and ultimately decided not to.
If Piech was the head honcho and there was no way he was going to enter F1 with Bernie there why did they even look at entering several times? Why would they even consider it if Piech was dead set against it ? Why would he let the talks / investigations etc happen ?

It doesn't add up - either Piech was more open to the idea of entering than we were led to believe and they decided not to for other reasons, or they never had any intention of joining and were wasting their own time and everyone elses as well ?

Last time they looked was when the new engine regs were being drawn up. They were insisting on a inline 4 and didn't want to go V6. When they decided (again) not to enter they ditched the inline 4 idea (that everyone disliked) and went to V6s.

It could be Piech's replacement is an advocate of F1 and will take the company that way, I'm just not convinced the only thing stopping the company coming to F1 previously was one grumpy old man disliking another grumpy old man.

the other me

613 posts

152 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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Christian Horner poo-poo'd it on the F1Forum on the Beeb after the Bahrain race, when it was brought to his attention that Mattesichz (sorry couldn't be bothered to look up the spelling. . . . if wrong) had hinted at a possible sell-out to Audi, so, whose Da Boss ?

I could well imagine Audi going for it, but, looking at Hondas tumultuous start, they will have to get their st together a bit ahead of any entry if they want to look germanically organised. . . .

hdrflow

854 posts

137 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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Crafty_ said:
It could be Piech's replacement is an advocate of F1 and will take the company that way, I'm just not convinced the only thing stopping the company coming to F1 previously was one grumpy old man disliking another grumpy old man.
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/12/20/some-in...

JoeSaward said:
No-one seems to know why there is an antipathy between Ecclestone and Volkswagen boss Ferdinand Piech, but it does seem that something is stopping the company entering F1, as many of the executives think it is a great idea and much better value for money than the current activities.
It appears a wooden coat would be necessary if Piech was still in charge. This opens the way for Audi to buy Red Bull or at least a part of it. I'd expect something similar to Joest Racing would happen if that was to be the case.
Audi may need the opportunity to develop petrol/hybrid power plants. They may also think is a better proposition to promote e-tron as a brand. Personally I'd rather they didn't enter F1, but Mercedes success may be a bit too much for them.

What's even more interesting is the billions in shares that Piech holds. He threatened to sell them in order to cause a dive in VW value before.

Very interesting times ahead...

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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Ref the link - Joe comes up with many musings and little bits of information, only a small proportion only ever amounts to anything.

Audi could do hybrid work in WEC if they so wished, they don't need to come to F1 to do that. If they come in its purely a marketing thing, but I don't see why they need to - their profits and sales look strong enough, I'm not convinced that being in F1 would improve them ? especially given they have WEC to do R&D in, which Merc do not.

If they are coming, I can't imagine we'd see them before 2017, even if they could get an engine together for 2016 there would be no point given the incoming engine changes, so they'll get involved in setting the regulations and enter on that basis. Red Bull the obvious team - not sure if just as a partner/engine provider or as a full team. They could always buy STR I suppose.

Some Gump

12,671 posts

185 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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I don't buy it. I can see huge potential pitfaalls, and virtually nil upside.

The place to develop relevent tech is WEC, they're already there twice.

The place to sell the sporty brands is by having the actual cars racing - blancpain, all the local / semi international GT series - they're there with 4 brands - plus the rich man's passtime SuperTrofeo.

For the "normal" car brands - audi in dtm, vw and skoda rally, and seat does supercopa etc.

So, which brand would benefit from joining f1? Surely not Porsche or Audi. lambo and Bentley are doing fine and would never do enough to pay back the investment. Seat? Hell no - it's the value sporty brand, not posh sporty.

So, that leaves VW itself. Target market of quality / safety / upmarket family man. What benefit will they get? Bugger all - When Renault kicked arse, they sold a few special edition Clios, and still failed to sell any upmarket exec cars / anything aporty in high numbers.

Bmw spent a lot of money, and lost face. So did toyota. And honda. Why would anyne sane at VW want to out their hat in the ring when their sales are very high, and the upside is so low?

hdrflow

854 posts

137 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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Reuters said:
The comment came at a time when VW is cutting billions of euros of costs and revamping structures, having struggled with chronic underperformance in the United States and declining profitability at its core autos division.
Not everything is well. The above is why Piech went a bit crazy against Winterkorn.

@Crafty I don't see them buying STR. I think Renault will buy STR. They've been given the go-ahead to buy something in F1 anyhow hehe. But they're skint compared to Audi and VW.

hdrflow

854 posts

137 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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It's also the case that Porsche is now in WEC so two VW brands in one championship may be deemed unnecessary. All rumours and speculation of course. It's not like I know hehe

Fire99

9,844 posts

228 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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If I were Audi I wouldn't bother. I don't see the benefit for Audi if I'm honest.

andyps

7,817 posts

281 months

Saturday 25th April 2015
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The disappointing thing in this is that (if what has been said about Piech being the block to Audi getting into F1 is true) it is Piech that has resigned as Bernie said that if it was the case that Audi would enter if he wasn't involved he would step aside. We could have got rid of Bernie but instead he is still here frown

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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And you think things will be better without Bernie there ?

Not a chance.

suffolk009

5,344 posts

164 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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I must be alone in wondering why any manufacturer would want to be in F1. Great if you're winning like Merc. Not so good for Honda, BMW, Toyota, Ford, Jaguar, even Peugot, Porsche and Lamborghini have had engines in the past.

How long will any manufacturer pour money in whilst they're not winning? Only a few seasons at most.

I think the future of F1 is financially secure racing teams. 11 of them, all with sufficient secured earnings to build a stable business.

If the threat of bankruptcy is removed from the backmarkers, then they will attract sponsors, engine deals and build a better race team.

Ukipdefect

109 posts

107 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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Could they slap a skoda badge on?

andyps

7,817 posts

281 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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Crafty_ said:
And you think things will be better without Bernie there ?

Not a chance.
It would take time, but change is needed and Bernie hasn't adapted as the commercial rights holder.

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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andyps said:
It would take time, but change is needed and Bernie hasn't adapted as the commercial rights holder.
The problem you will face is CVC want a very large pound of flesh out of their investment. Bernie basically walks a line between the teams, the FIA and CVC & other 'owners'.

Remove bernie and CVC will just scalp their investment for money.

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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hdrflow said:
It appears a wooden coat would be necessary if Piech was still in charge. This opens the way for Audi to buy Red Bull or at least a part of it. I'd expect something similar to Joest Racing would happen if that was to be the case.
Audi may need the opportunity to develop petrol/hybrid power plants. They may also think is a better proposition to promote e-tron as a brand. Personally I'd rather they didn't enter F1, but Mercedes success may be a bit too much for them.

What's even more interesting is the billions in shares that Piech holds. He threatened to sell them in order to cause a dive in VW value before.

Very interesting times ahead...
Very insightful. I'm pretty sure that a Joest type arrangement would be the preferred solution. It'll be the Audi brand, leaving Porsche in WEC.

Piech and his fsmily own a significant shareholding in VW I had heard that it was as high as 51% but am not convinced it really is that high. Do they risk reducing their fortune by indeed influencing VW by selling shares though?

hdrflow

854 posts

137 months

Sunday 26th April 2015
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I think the 51% is the shareholding (still) of Porsche. And Porsche is controlled by Porsche/Piech. From reading the internet Wolfgang doesn't give a toss about Piech atm. The Germans wouldn't be happy with VW being sold to foreigners, or at least a controlling stake outside the current German/Austrian arrangement. Unions and the like.

Piech is no fool. He's a remarkably intelligent person so it's possible this is a strategic retreat. Wolfgang Porsche sided with Winterkorn apparently,

Wolfgang said:
“Dr. Piëch’s statement reflects his private opinion, which is not aligned with that of the family,” Wolfgang is quoted as saying.
This is huge for VW. Apparently less than 3% margin these days, not counting Porsche I'd imagine.