The Official 2015 Monaco Grand Prix thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
Scuffers said:
RYH64E said:
Crafty_ said:
The driver doesn't have nearly as much information as the guys in the pits, who know when each car stopped, can check on rivals lap times (to get an idea of tyre deg etc).
Yes, the driver has input but its not the defining factor.
It seems to me that when a driver makes a good call to switch to dry/intermediate/slick tyres he's a genius, and when he gets it completely wrong it's the teams fault. Yes, the driver has input but its not the defining factor.
the trick is for the pit wall to keep the driver in the picture, for whatever reason, this did not happen in Monaco for Lewis.
If you know as much as you think you know, you'd know that the team didn't have all the info, because of the delay in updating as was explained to the factory in last week's debrief.
REALIST123 said:
That'll be the Lewis who regularly tells his team not to talk to him, right?
If you know as much as you think you know, you'd know that the team didn't have all the info, because of the delay in updating as was explained to the factory in last week's debrief.
your being selective on what we get to here now...If you know as much as you think you know, you'd know that the team didn't have all the info, because of the delay in updating as was explained to the factory in last week's debrief.
he is not alone in asking them not to speak when he's otherwise engaged.
At the end of the day, the man on the pit wall end should have all the info and should be making the calls based on everything, by all means the drive has an input into this, but he's often not in the best position to know.
RYH64E said:
It seems to me that when a driver makes a good call to switch to dry/intermediate/slick tyres he's a genius, and when he gets it completely wrong it's the teams fault.
I would agree to some extent, but do consider that when a track is drying the only thing the guy on the pitwall doesn't know is exactly how wet the track is and how much grip is out there, the driver knows this - he knows how much the tyres are sliding, spinning out of corners and so on, so driver feedback is a very important factor in decisions.In this situation the engineers often ask the driver if a switch is possible - big rewards to be had if you are the first on to slicks and time it right. It doesn't always work though, we've seen drivers change to early and just go backwards at a rate of knots.
I do not recall a race where a driver threw away the pre-agreed strategy or disagreed with the team, called the shots and won a race from doing so - if there is rain/drying track/other unplanned event and plans go out the window anyway.
Regardless, the race engineers/strategists take the blame anyway, its part of the job ! In NASCAR the raised platform the crew chief sits on is known as the "prat perch", just the way it goes..
I think Grosjean may have braked on a slightly unusual line and that's what caught Verstappen out.
He was obviously protecting the inside by being on the right, he then angled the car to the left at the last moment so he wouldn't hit the apex too early, then he braked.
He didn't change his line whilst braking, but he would have been moving across the track diagonally whilst decelerating.
I still don't think Verstappen should have been penalised for it though, it was very much a racing incident.
Regarding the GPS business; I wonder if the GPS frequency was the same as the brake channel frequency. If GPS is recorded at 50Hz, the car will only travel 1.5m between data points at 170mph. The teams will be interpolating the data so they should have a very good idea of where drivers are braking.
He was obviously protecting the inside by being on the right, he then angled the car to the left at the last moment so he wouldn't hit the apex too early, then he braked.
He didn't change his line whilst braking, but he would have been moving across the track diagonally whilst decelerating.
I still don't think Verstappen should have been penalised for it though, it was very much a racing incident.
Regarding the GPS business; I wonder if the GPS frequency was the same as the brake channel frequency. If GPS is recorded at 50Hz, the car will only travel 1.5m between data points at 170mph. The teams will be interpolating the data so they should have a very good idea of where drivers are braking.
Scuffers said:
your being selective on what we get to here now...
he is not alone in asking them not to speak when he's otherwise engaged.
At the end of the day, the man on the pit wall end should have all the info and should be making the calls based on everything, by all means the drive has an input into this, but he's often not in the best position to know.
This.he is not alone in asking them not to speak when he's otherwise engaged.
At the end of the day, the man on the pit wall end should have all the info and should be making the calls based on everything, by all means the drive has an input into this, but he's often not in the best position to know.
& of all the tracks, Monaco is the one you don't want to be having a conversation with your drivers
Crafty_ said:
I would agree to some extent, but do consider that when a track is drying the only thing the guy on the pitwall doesn't know is exactly how wet the track is and how much grip is out there, the driver knows this - he knows how much the tyres are sliding, spinning out of corners and so on, so driver feedback is a very important factor in decisions.
In this situation the engineers often ask the driver if a switch is possible - big rewards to be had if you are the first on to slicks and time it right. It doesn't always work though, we've seen drivers change to early and just go backwards at a rate of knots.
I do not recall a race where a driver threw away the pre-agreed strategy or disagreed with the team, called the shots and won a race from doing so - if there is rain/drying track/other unplanned event and plans go out the window anyway.
Regardless, the race engineers/strategists take the blame anyway, its part of the job ! In NASCAR the raised platform the crew chief sits on is known as the "prat perch", just the way it goes..
But the team didn't make the wrong call, the team said stay out, it was only after Hamilton raised concerns over the condition of his tyres that they said 'ok, come in'. The driver is the only one with first hand experience of the tyres, surely it's his call? It wasn't as if there was time for a debate about the pros and cons of pitting, there were seconds to make a decision and the superstar driver wanted to pit, it would take a very brave man to overrule him under such circumstances. In this situation the engineers often ask the driver if a switch is possible - big rewards to be had if you are the first on to slicks and time it right. It doesn't always work though, we've seen drivers change to early and just go backwards at a rate of knots.
I do not recall a race where a driver threw away the pre-agreed strategy or disagreed with the team, called the shots and won a race from doing so - if there is rain/drying track/other unplanned event and plans go out the window anyway.
Regardless, the race engineers/strategists take the blame anyway, its part of the job ! In NASCAR the raised platform the crew chief sits on is known as the "prat perch", just the way it goes..
RYH64E said:
But the team didn't make the wrong call, the team said stay out, it was only after Hamilton raised concerns over the condition of his tyres that they said 'ok, come in'. The driver is the only one with first hand experience of the tyres, surely it's his call? It wasn't as if there was time for a debate about the pros and cons of pitting, there were seconds to make a decision and the superstar driver wanted to pit, it would take a very brave man to overrule him under such circumstances.
yes, but the team should have realised that it was not going to work and told lewis as much.RYH64E said:
But the team didn't make the wrong call, the team said stay out, it was only after Hamilton raised concerns over the condition of his tyres that they said 'ok, come in'. The driver is the only one with first hand experience of the tyres, surely it's his call? It wasn't as if there was time for a debate about the pros and cons of pitting, there were seconds to make a decision and the superstar driver wanted to pit, it would take a very brave man to overrule him under such circumstances.
Sorry, but that's not right. This wasn't like a wet/drying track where the driver knows significantly more than the teams.
A driver doesn't know all the gaps and times in those situations.
They cocked up the timings, simple as that. If they'd twigged he'd come back out in third it doesn't matter what the driver has said, they would not call him in.
At the very least they KNEW they weren't pitting Nico. Nobody would deliberately lose track position at Monaco with a few laps to go, especially against an equal car. The difference in pace from the tyres would have to be immense to enable the second car to get past.
All Lewis asked was: "Are you sure that's the best thing to do? These tyres have lost all their temperature. Everyone’s going to be on [super-softs] now."
That's very different from: "We need to pit now"
Their instant response should have been: "Yes stay out, and Nico is staying out too".
It's Nico that Lewis is fighting for the championship. If he'd lost to Vettel but still finished second I doubt he'd have been as bothered.
RYH64E said:
But the team didn't make the wrong call, the team said stay out, it was only after Hamilton raised concerns over the condition of his tyres that they said 'ok, come in'. The driver is the only one with first hand experience of the tyres, surely it's his call? It wasn't as if there was time for a debate about the pros and cons of pitting, there were seconds to make a decision and the superstar driver wanted to pit, it would take a very brave man to overrule him under such circumstances.
"my tyres are wearing, everyone else will pit, I need to pit""negative Lewis, Nico is not stopping, Ferrari show no signs, it'll be less than 10 laps, stay out"
Simple as that, they had more than enough facts to back up staying out (or damm well should have), even if Vettel had stopped and put the option on, there was no way he'd have got past Nico, let alone Lewis.
A driver moaning about the state of their tyres? happens all the time - quite often just before they set a FL - Lewis especially is known for this.
Managing a drive mid-race is never easy and Lewis is certainly no exception. They moan about this and that, claim they can't go as fast as they think they need to, complain when someone talks to them, do the same when they haven't been given enough information (remember Lewis's "can someone please tell me whats going on?"??)
At the end of the day, the driver drives, engineers run the strategy/race. If the driver bins it - his fault, not like the engineers can prevent that. If the engineers screw up they lose, not a lot the driver can do about it.
The driver never has the ultimate call on stopping, just like the engineer doesn't have ultimate call on a braking point for a corner - thats down tot he driver to pick, the engineer might think the driver can go 2m later but its not him pushing the pedals, feeling the grip in the car.
When a race is being run I see lots of comments in chat/live topics along the lines of "duh XXX team are messing up strategy, they should pit now" or "they should go for the undercut" or "they have to pit right now!".
Most of the time, 90% I'd say, the author of the comments are wrong, but thats okay - they have less information than the engineers/strategists making the calls, they haven't seen the results of the scenario runs done back in the factory and so on.
When Merc went in to the pitlane all the live comments I could see instantly went to "WTF !" "Why stop now?" "They're going to screw it up". I was one of them.
And, for once, they were right. Monaco is a track where you can defend with worn tyres - not that either of the Mercs had run them very far.
As I said, people make mistakes, s
t happens. Mercedes have to (or have already) figure out why the mistake was made and then work out how the decisions making progress didn't double check.Lauda said conversation over the radio was confused and going back and forwards. That, to me suggests that chain of command broke down, authority was lacking in some way. You can't have that sort of organisational failure when you need to make quick decisions.
Its bloody embarrassing for Toto and Paddy - Zetsche was in the garages! Imagine what he thought! The team have just justified paying this driver nigh on £2m a month (allegedly) and they throw a race win away ?
Well, lets see:
Apparently "wie kann man nur so doof sein?" or "how can you be so stupid?"
The big fear (to me anyway) now is that they go the other way, and become too cautious when there is a gamble to be made. Either way, they need to re-establish how information is gathered and fed to someone who makes the decision and does the radio comms.
They may have still made the mistake, but Brawn would not have this dicking about on the radio. I suspect he had a little chuckle to himself over this one. I suspect Paddy will have to make a more active role in race operations for a while.
RYH64E said:
......the superstar driver wanted to pit, it would take a very brave man to overrule him under such circumstances.
what a ridiculous assertion - it would take a person with the facts, a person with an understanding of the situation, a person not hard of thinking. The driver is the child in this relationship.....- "Mummy, daddy, I want to piss my pants"
- "OK superstar, you go ahead"
Mr_Thyroid said:
RYH64E said:
......the superstar driver wanted to pit, it would take a very brave man to overrule him under such circumstances.
what a ridiculous assertion - it would take a person with the facts, a person with an understanding of the situation, a person not hard of thinking. The driver is the child in this relationship.....- "Mummy, daddy, I want to piss my pants"
- "OK superstar, you go ahead"
REALIST123 said:
That'll be the Lewis who regularly tells his team not to talk to him, right?
He actually tells them to pick their times to speak with him. His complaints are that they occasionally talk to him when he's approaching or in a corner.Seems a reasonable complaint. If he can't give his attention to the message then it is pointless sending it unless vital.
Two things, just caught up on the F1 show as we were out at the race last weekend and I must say I was incredibly impressed by Nico's interview with sky at the end of the show. He came across really well and very courteous of Lewis after being gifted the win.
Now, more importantly...
Does anyone know why the Ferraris and Hondas sound so rough on the over-run? More interestingly, why did Vettel's Ferrari not have this rough over-run sound for most of the race? Everyone in our party commented on it as it was so completely obvious. It was only in the last quarter of the race that his engine sounded like all the others-a sort of constant machine gun fire as they downshifted into the last corner before the pits (where we were sat).
On a completely unrelated note, I loved the sound of the new engines by the way
Now, more importantly...
Does anyone know why the Ferraris and Hondas sound so rough on the over-run? More interestingly, why did Vettel's Ferrari not have this rough over-run sound for most of the race? Everyone in our party commented on it as it was so completely obvious. It was only in the last quarter of the race that his engine sounded like all the others-a sort of constant machine gun fire as they downshifted into the last corner before the pits (where we were sat).
On a completely unrelated note, I loved the sound of the new engines by the way
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Does anyone know why the Ferraris and Hondas sound so rough on the over-run? More interestingly, why did Vettel's Ferrari not have this rough over-run sound for most of the race? Everyone in our party commented on it as it was so completely obvious. It was only in the last quarter of the race that his engine sounded like all the others-a sort of constant machine gun fire as they downshifted into the last corner before the pits (where we were sat).
Perhaps different levels of fuel-cut during the overrun depending on which map they are using to save fuel ?MartG said:
Perhaps different levels of fuel-cut during the overrun depending on which map they are using to save fuel ?
sounds like towards the end of the race they had fuel to spare, so started using some of it to keep the turbo spinning rather than use electric power (and thus save the electric power for drive)there is no restriction on how much energy they can harvest from the turbo like there is from the MGU-K
Scuffers said:
MartG said:
Perhaps different levels of fuel-cut during the overrun depending on which map they are using to save fuel ?
sounds like towards the end of the race they had fuel to spare, so started using some of it to keep the turbo spinning rather than use electric power (and thus save the electric power for drive)there is no restriction on how much energy they can harvest from the turbo like there is from the MGU-K
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formul...
Merc trying to have the last say in the matter of the decision to pit LH.
Nice comment from LH.
Merc trying to have the last say in the matter of the decision to pit LH.
Nice comment from LH.
"Incorrect data" is mentioned twice. Could it have been data that was out of their control? Software error, bad data from the FIA?
It wouldn't have taken that long to discuss it if it was as simple as one man making an error. If a mechanic had the wheel gun setting to the wrong direction and stripped the tread on the hub, I doubt they'd have an hours chat about it. They'd just give him a clip behind the ear, mock him for the next couple of seasons once a few days had passed and then it'd all be back to normal.
It wouldn't have taken that long to discuss it if it was as simple as one man making an error. If a mechanic had the wheel gun setting to the wrong direction and stripped the tread on the hub, I doubt they'd have an hours chat about it. They'd just give him a clip behind the ear, mock him for the next couple of seasons once a few days had passed and then it'd all be back to normal.
SpeedMattersNot said:
It wouldn't have taken that long to discuss it if it was as simple as one man making an error.
It's only taken this long to discuss because the media and internet forums have been dragging it out for so long, because there's been no other stories to discuss in the two week gap until the next race. Once the next story or the next race comes along this Hamilton story will be given the ongoing attention it deserves, i.e. none.LaurasOtherHalf said:
Scuffers said:
MartG said:
Perhaps different levels of fuel-cut during the overrun depending on which map they are using to save fuel ?
sounds like towards the end of the race they had fuel to spare, so started using some of it to keep the turbo spinning rather than use electric power (and thus save the electric power for drive)there is no restriction on how much energy they can harvest from the turbo like there is from the MGU-K
Renault not having this mode in their mappings?
RBS not having as much fuel to use?
you tell me?
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