Refuelling back for 2017

Refuelling back for 2017

Author
Discussion

rdjohn

6,135 posts

194 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
But at least we can be certain that drivers are going flat out in all segments of the race. Driving to Deltas is all very clever and right for WEC team events, but not in F1.

If true then this is a step forward in improving the show. As others have said "close following" needs to be addressed, but if we end up with only 4 works teams actually capable of competing, then it will still only be half the spectacle that it should be.

andyps

7,817 posts

281 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
Pretty sure they will all drive to a delta, the only way to stop that would be no pit stops so full fuel tanks with more fuel than is needed and a set of tyres which would do two race distances, but don't need to be made to do so meaning there would be no restriction on speed due to tyre wear (even though by nature these would mean the cars were slower around the corners, but wider tyres would help there).

The idea Gordon Murray came up with of a certain amount of energy with which to complete the race, use it how you like, but no more, would be a good way to add some variety and interest.

RP1

252 posts

149 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
Whilst I don't like the idea of this possibly allowing more wins based on strategy I think these are good moves.

The free use of tyre compounds will allow teams and drives to maximise their set up and get the most from the car.

Refuelling means the drivers can push (tyres permitting) rather than having to fuel save (yes, potentially it will be the same fuel allowance for a GP but less weight to carry around so more efficient). Also lighter cars will help with the set up as there will be less variance of having to pick the set up that fits both a full and empty tank.

All of which should add up to drivers being more confident and comfortable in the cars and pushing them closer to the limits which should then make for more interesting racing.

Do agree they also need to address the aero which prevents following a car too closely too.



Edited by RP1 on Friday 15th May 16:12

garycat

4,382 posts

209 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
Strategy group says

=


The Strategy Group members have debated a number of levers aimed at improving the show. An initial series of measures has been voted:
For 2016:
- Free choice of the two dry tyre compounds (out of four) that each team can use during the race weekend

For 2017:
- Faster cars: 5 to 6 seconds drop in laptimes through aerodynamic rules evolution, wider tyres and reduction of car weight
- Reintroduction of refuelling (maintaining a maximum race fuel allowance)
- Higher revving engines and increased noise
- More aggressive looks

A few other measures have also been discussed but require further investigation before they can be implemented:
- A global reflection on race weekend format
- Measures to make starts only activated by the driver without any outside assistance

=



How are they going to make the cars 5-6 seconds faster? That would probably need 1200bhp or so.

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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Not pushing is to do with the tyres at the moment isn't it?

budgie smuggler

5,359 posts

158 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
garycat said:
- Higher revving engines and increased noise
What's the point if they don't raise the fuel flow limit? They're already not hitting their rev limiters.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
garycat said:
- Higher revving engines and increased noise
What's the point if they don't raise the fuel flow limit? They're already not hitting their rev limiters.
Indeed. It's all "please respect the beeps" at the moment.

Eric Mc

121,785 posts

264 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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Doesn't it all sound rather cosmetic rather than fundamental?

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
But at least we can be certain that drivers are going flat out in all segments of the race. Driving to Deltas is all very clever and right for WEC team events, but not in F1.

If true then this is a step forward in improving the show. As others have said "close following" needs to be addressed, but if we end up with only 4 works teams actually capable of competing, then it will still only be half the spectacle that it should be.
It's a bit of a fallacy. I don't get the argument that every lap should flat because doesn't make for great racing as the refuelling era had its share of good and bad races. People will got tired of point and squirt and wanted the drivers to look after a the car a bit more, now it seems the people want to see cars flat out; eventually it will come full circle.

Like crap tyres it's band aid to the problem of aero and following dirty air.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Doesn't it all sound rather cosmetic rather than fundamental?
yes

I think one of the big problems they haven't looked at is the way every tiny detail is simulated/computed to the nth degree. Very few mistakes are made because of that, so the cars just finish in a relatively predictable position according to the ultimate performance of the car.

They've tried to address this by sort of banning driving instruction from the pit wall, cutting the tie between simulation and driver, but more of the stuff worked out by computers needs to disappear from the sport.

Dr Z

3,396 posts

170 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
garycat said:
- Higher revving engines and increased noise
What's the point if they don't raise the fuel flow limit? They're already not hitting their rev limiters.
Can't you increase the revs by bringing the fuel flow ceiling closer to the actual rev limits (and extending the rev limit further than 15k rpm)? If this is how it'll be implemented, it's a bit artificial, although the car may become easier to drive as the power band will be flatter.

VolvoT5

4,155 posts

173 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
I can see the argument for the teams having a choice of all the tyre compounds and it would spice things up strategy wise. However I feel this will favour the teams that can't manage tyres well at the moment and probably hurt teams with 'gentle' tyre management like Ferrari and Force India. I think it is also another example of where the result will be decided in the back room by who has the best simulation software and who manages to be on the right tyre at the right time.

I don't think the benefits of refuelling outweighs the risks really. OK it brings strategy back into the equation, but personally I feel the days of pit fires and cars driving down the pit lane with half a leaking fuel hose attached should remain in the past. Plus it will be more races decided in the pit stops.

Watching F1 classic races on sky one thing I couldn't help but think was how much BETTER f1 is WITHOUT refuelling - safer for all. I really don't think it is justifiable.


They need to make the cars cheaper. Sort out the aero so is is more basic and they can follow closely again. And turn up the noise and power while they are at it.





Edited by VolvoT5 on Friday 15th May 17:30

MartG

20,626 posts

203 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
Rather than more pitstops, and races won/lost while the cars are stationary, I'd like to have seen more inducement to actually race on track.

Things like no fuel limits, tyres that can last the entire race ( and take a minute to change ), start and finish weight limits that ensure cars carry enough fuel to be at full belt for the whole race, stronger suspension and wings so a minor tap from another car doesn't mean retirement.

VolvoT5

4,155 posts

173 months

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
MartG said:
Rather than more pitstops, and races won/lost while the cars are stationary, I'd like to have seen more inducement to actually race on track.

Things like no fuel limits, tyres that can last the entire race ( and take a minute to change ), start and finish weight limits that ensure cars carry enough fuel to be at full belt for the whole race, stronger suspension and wings so a minor tap from another car doesn't mean retirement.
Why would there be more pitstops? Plenty of waiting for pitstops to overtake as it is, refuelling wouldn't necessarily alter that.

At least we might see the cars driven somewhere near their limits a bit more than now.



skeggysteve

5,724 posts

216 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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VolvoT5 said:
No, and I really hope refueling returns to F1.

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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garycat said:
For 2017:
- Faster cars: 5 to 6 seconds drop in laptimes through aerodynamic rules evolution, wider tyres and reduction of car weight
How are they going to reduce the weight of the cars? Haven't they just had to increase the minimum weight because they couldn't hit he limit without forcing the drivers to become unhealthily thin?

rallycross

12,747 posts

236 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
Munter said:
Not pushing is to do with the tyres at the moment isn't it?
Correct
Hence going back to fuel stops is a Red herring - it won't make any difference other than make it worse as the flow of the race is lost due to lots of pit stops and even less ( even less than now) on track overtakes.

Chrisgr31

13,440 posts

254 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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Gaz. said:
I think those hoping the racing will improve are in for a massive disappointment.
I agree, and I am not really sure what is wrong with the racing so far this year? We have had 5 races, with 3 different winners, and yes in general the Mercedes have been at the front but there have been other battles down the field.

What they need to do is sort out the funding so teams get enough to build and run the cars for a year, they can then use sponsorship to add bells and whistles, do that and we could find some of the less well funded teams embarassing the well funded teams.

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Friday 15th May 2015
quotequote all
All that money on fuel efficient, V6 turbo engines with massively complex energy recovery systems to aid efficiency and make F1 more relevant to road cars. Then F1, having indulged in yet another bout of navel gazing that utterly excludes and ignores the fans (Again. How fking arrogant is this sport?), utterly devalues all of that by going for refuelling to spice up the show. Oh, and rejects cost caps and perpetuates the utterly mental prize money distribution to embed the current hegemony of teams and ensure that (absent a happy serendipity of major rules upheaval and Brawn-style fairytale (yes, I know Honda had spanked god knows how much on that chassis, but indulge me) there will be the same few teams shuffling around each other at the top, and the midfield teams shuffling around each other...